turn based or real-time combat?

[jack1974]

I'm really unsure which system to use for Loren RPG. The choice is between:
1. classic turn-based combat, with action points and initiative-based turn order. Which means that the character will move based on their speed (faster characters will move first), but each one has also an amount of action point. This would mean that every activable skill also need an AP cost.
2. order phase, then real-time execution. It means that you plan your orders and then they gets executed in real time. First you decide what each character will do (will also need some sort of basic AI, like Dragon Age tactics for example) and then once you are satisfied, the real-time execution will start (of course also enemies will attack, and the movement order will be influenced by initiative as always).

The 1st is easier to code, but the 2nd seems better to me. I'm thinking to use that one... but any feedback is welcome!

[Elmsdor]

Hmm, real time combat, is that similar to the Real Time Strategy games of our genre? Or is it akin to the simultaneous turn taken in games like Master of Orion, Heroes of Magic, etc?

I assume it's real time like the Strategy games. While it will be much more harder to code, it is also fun and innovative. BUT the issue will then be developing an AI and algorithms that will be playable, or challenging to play against. And balancing issues to sort as well.

With classical turn based, 4x, stats are a lot easier to make, and as you said, code as well. You can also make much more interesting scenarios in turn I think, akin to games like Tactics, Ogre, etc.

I enjoy both forms, but I think we all need probably a really rudimentary small battle, and maybe you can get more opinions from us all that one, one of 4x and one of RT?

Cheers.

[jack1974]

Yes probably should make some tests. The turn based would be in practice like Planet Stronghold but with Action Points that are used doing the various skills and the movement order will be influenced by initiative. I wanted to make the movement order change already in Planet Stronghold add-on which I thought would come out sooner than this game, but as always artists screwed up the schedule...

[SpectralTime]

I favor the first option, in part because the second confuses me. With the first, you've got a basic SRPG, Final Fantasy Tactics-style turn order. You could even include a Delay Turn command, allowing the player to defer a character's place in the initiative order until after another character's, friend or foe. AP systems are also nice, particularly when you can stockpile AP or otherwise have someway of boosting it, so long as the AP costs are balanced and don't render certain skills neigh-unusable.

[Elmsdor]

Haha I like Action Points, they can make or break a concept, and defines character/class too. I don't believe in stockpiling APs though. You can only do so much in the perceieved 10 seconds of combat. You can't just burrow time. Unless there's magic, keke.

How would you do that in Planet Stronghold? For a non tactical, aka rpg, no initiative helps, and let's you create overpowered scenarios, much like the Final Fantasy series. Who would go first, next, in PS if you redid initiative now?

Tactical games with maps, will DEFINITELY promote initiative, adding another dimension of play, and allows fast/slow character concepts. Movement and speed, as such.

Sometimes, simple is the best. Like soup

Cheers.

[jack1974]

I favor the first option, in part because the second confuses me. With the first, you've got a basic SRPG, Final Fantasy Tactics-style turn order. You could even include a Delay Turn command, allowing the player to defer a character's place in the initiative order until after another character's, friend or foe. AP systems are also nice, particularly when you can stockpile AP or otherwise have someway of boosting it, so long as the AP costs are balanced and don't render certain skills neigh-unusable.

Hm unfortunately I cannot think about any RPG that uses the second system. I mean Dragon Age is always real-time with pause button, so it's not like this. In another forum I asked feedback they also said that could lead to frustration, since with turn based you immediately see the effects of your decisions...

Haha I like Action Points, they can make or break a concept, and defines character/class too. I don't believe in stockpiling APs though. You can only do so much in the perceieved 10 seconds of combat. You can't just burrow time. Unless there's magic, keke.

Well I would indeed have a "Haste" skill that in practice would increase target AP. But also AP would depend on character class, I imagine Thieves having more AP since are more agile than other classes. And maybe Mages would have higher initiative... hmm lots of stuff to balance!

How would you do that in Planet Stronghold? For a non tactical, aka rpg, no initiative helps, and let's you create overpowered scenarios, much like the Final Fantasy series. Who would go first, next, in PS if you redid initiative now?

Well probably the classes with lowest HP, like psionics, so you could at least use the psionic powers before being bashed by enemies :D
Why you say that in normal RPG initiative doesn't help? I think makes things more realistic instead of having each team fighting one after the other ? Obviously I would have to add/change some gameplay too, like light armors or light weapon would make heroes move first (you take more time to load a bazooka than a pistol/machine gun)...

[Elmsdor]

Haha tons of RPGs use the second system, let me drum a few. Ogre Battle, DIABLO, Star Ocean, Link, Phantasy Star, Star Force, Ys, DBZ, etc. There are even a few RPGs that use the Simultaneous Turn system such as Vandal Hearts 2, Heroes of Might and Magic, etc.

And I do agree with AP, that agility type classes will tend to have AP more OR their abilities will consume less AP. A class like a swordsmaster who uses dual wielding, will tend to be good at running, but have a heavy cost in attacking skills, like in Tactics Ogre. Balances and ideas.

Hah, fair enough, having people wait in line for their turn to shoot is a bit unrealistic, but it worked in DnD for decades Again, balancing will be an issue. Can you imagine a Boss Battle where they go first, Tires everyone, and then you're jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeweed. I like challenges, perhaps you can balance this :D. So far, I enjoy the aggro system, which lets a micro manager plan their combat.

Light items could be more accurate, benefit more from Defensive/Regen if you want to increase complexity too.

Agreed, casters and rangers tend to go first, so they can survive the deadly melee, IF

Cheers

[jack1974]

Yeah I have the feeling that moving to a real-time system will be a mess to balance the game :D On the other hand would appeal much more non-hardcore gamers. I really am not sure, as I said this game will be more casual than hardcore, so need to think about it, maybe a "pausable" real-time like Baldur's Gate could be a good solution... Will need to do several tests!

[SpectralTime]

I dunno man... I don't think Real Time is any better than Turn Based with regard to that rotten casual/hardcore bit. It's all in the presentation, and that's not something that either one is better or worse for.

[jack1974]

Well, but turn based games nowadays are becoming a rarity... anyway doesn't really matter since the kind of games I make are niche games, Spiderweb sells a lot making turn based games, etc. So indeed I'll base the game on what I think can do better