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If I haven't found out what bifauxnen was, I swear I would confuse those pictures of dudes instead of girls. Characters like this would be a good addition to the games.

daikiraikimi wrote:

P_Tigras wrote: When I think "masculine facial and body features" I think flat chest, straight hips, broad shoulders, more muscular arms, heavier, more pronounced brow, stronger jaw, and lots of facial and body hair. I don't mind the broad shoulders and stronger jaw so much, not all women are fragile-looking waifs, and thicker arms are ok as long as they retain a certain sleekness and don't get too blocky and veiny, but I'm sorry, when all the rest of those masculine features are added in, an image is created that I don't find particularly attractive. Not that I begrudge you such a character if you're into that, but I'm going to hop off the train at this point. I have nothing against physically strong women, but if they're going to be a romance interest for my characters, I'd still like them to look like women. So if she has a beard, then she's all yours.

Although I am sure that some people are attracted to super masculine looking females with body hair etc. that is simply not what bifauxnen is. Bifauxnen would resemble "pretty boys" more than "manly men."

Ahh, given that when I think "masculine", I think men, not boys, I was envisioning something quite a bit different than the pics you've shared with us. I'm not a big fan of the manga-style to begin with because of its tendency to exaggerate certain features to the point of absurdity, but I'll make some comments as we go

But if a bifauxnen is dressed in female clothes and looks the same as any other girl, her masculinity not shining through, it's just not the same. Here are some examples of the "aesthetic" I was talking about:

I have an issue with your definition of "masculinity", but I've already touched on that.

The important thing is 1. attitude and 2. aesthetic. My point is that, for instance, the pink haired girl above can only fit the criteria of bifauxnen when she is dressed in masculine clothes because her natural features are very feminine, and she has long hair. Bifauxnen range from more masculine to more feminine, but the entire point is that they must have some kind of masculine appeal both in personality and in looks. (You can't just put any woman in male clothes and call her bifauxnen, at least a little bit of androgyny and masculine charm is required. Otherwise it's just a girl in boys clothes.)

I don't have an issue with gals having attitude, or taking on "male" roles, or wearing "male" clothes. That's all fine, and even fun to me. But when the point of the aesthetic is to make them look like young boys my interest in them as romance interests disappears. Even women with "boyish" builds do not look exactly like boys, there are differences, and the more those differences are blurred, the less interested I am.

Also, doing things like emphasizing a female characters feminine characteristics, such as breasts or other fan service completely ruins the appeal. It's okay for the character to have breasts, etc, but it must be treated in a masculine fashion. (i.e. they can be there, but they shouldn't get too much attention, or be too sexualized as with female characters.)

feminine characteristics ruin the appeal?!?!? Uhhh...I beg to differ. Clearly our perspectives on this subject are markedly different. I think women can look absolutely fabulous as women, not boys, in "male" clothing while performing "male" roles. They don't need to have D cups that look like they're about to explode out of their tops or otherwise stray into the realm of fan service to look good as women. Slender women with small chests and hips can be very attractive too with their sleeker builds, but that's not the same as having them look like boys. Thank you for the explanation of bifauxnen however.

jack1974 wrote:As straight player I don't mind a character like Lakadema, but I understand that tastes are tastes.

I just wanted to voice my personal preferences as early as possible. I recognize that others may well disagree. If you leave me the option of imagining that sex between members of Laka's species works differently than it does among humans then I may bite on this particular romance. If on the other hand it's made clear that she also has a very human-like male part down below then I'm going to pass on this one. I'm not the least bit interested in having a romance with a "trap". That doesn't mean I'm going to hate on the character or anything like that.

As always will try to experiment a bit, trying to please a higher amount of people. And as said in the past, people don't need to think that Nook took the place of another Jul (or another hot pin-up girl), I would have included another Nook There's already a big cast and lots of variety in Loren 2, maybe a bit less in PS2.

Fair point. This is why I'm not concerned by Nook, and am more concerned with Laka who has been presented as a B-G romance for Joshua. Nevertheless I do suppose someone could make an argument that Nook took the place of another Mesphit or Amukiki, and I do believe one person has.

P_Tigras wrote: Ahh, given that when I think "masculine", I think men, not boys, I was envisioning something quite a bit different than the pics you've shared with us. I'm not a big fan of the manga-style to begin with because of its tendency to exaggerate certain features to the point of absurdity, but I'll make some comments as we go.

There are definitely some characters that have more manly masculine appeal while being female, but that's not what bifauxnen is. I certainly agree with your definition of masculinity, but I don't think that it's the only one. If someone looks boyish, they certainly look masculine when compared to someone who looks girlish, for example!

P_Tigras wrote: I don't have an issue with gals having attitude, or taking on "male" roles, or wearing "male" clothes. That's all fine, and even fun to me. But when the point of the aesthetic is to make them look like young boys my interest in them as romance interests disappears. Even women with "boyish" builds do not look exactly like boys, there are differences, and the more those differences are blurred, the less interested I am.

Fair, that would be your aesthetic preference. I would like to have characters like this who bend the gender lines more because that kind of character doesn't really show up very often, even in anime and manga (which has a huge pool to look in). So finding it in a game is almost impossible, although it is something I am quite fond of.

P_Tigras wrote: feminine characteristics ruin the appeal?!?!? Uhhh...I beg to differ. Clearly our perspectives on this subject are markedly different. I think women can look absolutely fabulous as women, not boys, in "male" clothing while performing "male" roles. They don't need to have D cups that look like they're about to explode out of their tops or otherwise stray into the realm of fan service to look good as women. Slender women with small chests and hips can be very attractive too with their sleeker builds, but that's not the same as having them look like boys. Thank you for the explanation of bifauxnen however.

Haha, like I said it's down to personal preference at that point. For me, using a bifauxnen character for "traditional female fanservice" is disrespectful to her character. She doesn't fit into the label of woman exactly, although if asked one would definitely say that she is one. But she goes out of her way to appear more masculine, so turning around and using her character to show off T&A is just... A huge turn off. That said, I don't mean cover up all her femininity-- bifauxnen is where subtle femininity and masculinity meet-- it's just that if the female sex appeal is overemphasized then it doesn't fit with the character. Bifauxnen is more of a female character with masculine sex appeal.

Sorry to go on about it! This is just one of my most favorite archetypes.

While in the end all is about tastes, for sure this discussion is interesting to me (and to my writers) to understand better what kind of character to add in next games
As for Lakadema, while of course her romance is not written yet, I wouldn't mind if was something completely different (she's an alien and a very particular one!). Considering her powers (which I won't reveal since is a spoiler of the story) "making love" with her could be an experience far from the sexual act, in appearance more romantic, "just kissing" but she could behave like a sort of drug that gives the lover a "unique sensation" outside of the human imagination

Boyish:

persona 4's Naoto Pic 2 and 4 (i think looks like it) a must romance. She is sweet and shy when made to wear "female" clothes because she is more herself in a suit.

MarSel wrote:
persona 4's Naoto Pic 2 and 4 (i think looks like it) a must romance. She is sweet and shy when made to wear "female" clothes because she is more herself in a suit.

Picture 2 is actually Kino from Kino no Tabi (my favorite anime), but picture 4 is indeed Naoto from Persona 4.

Naoto is one of my favorite characters. I was kind of disappointed at the "put Naoto in girls clothes" thing, though, because, like you said, she is more herself in mens' clothes.

But yeah, I would totally romance a Naoto-like character. :3

Wow the similarities are amazing!
I agree but she did look cute in her kimono If only Kenji was romance able lol

There are some Types of Characters that I'd love to see:

Someone like Sten from DAO. I was lmao after I found out how to make him speak about himself (and his love for cookies).

Shale/Shayle from DAO was also awesome because it was the most simple minded and straightforward character I had seen so far :D

Roland of Gilead a.k.a. the Gunslinger from Steven King's Dark Tower was awesome in the first Book. He was just a lone hero struggling for his quest no matter the cost after he lost everything that was important to him in his life except his stubborn mind and his precious guns. I liked how he was a mysterious traveler who just got things done without talking too much. Was a nice difference to "typical" heroes.

What would be funny too is some sort of Shaman, who has a guardian Spirit that he/she/it can interact with (which may or may not be visible to the other characters) and who has a mystical aura around him/her/it.

It would be interesting too if there where some kind of traitor who may or may not betray you depending on his relation to you or some other partymember.

At last some sort of Jokster would be nice. Some sort of dude or girl that hast an ironical commentary ready for everything to lighten up the tension

Hmm, I don't know exactly how should I describe such character but maybe someone read Artemis Fowl series? That genius kid with a spank is something I'm looking for.
(putting spoiler for those that would like to read this series without spoilers ) In short, some snarky genius-thief with crazy ideas that he/she still can pull off! And I mean someone, that's not adorable as Dora. She had just bad habits. Yeah... I think Locke Lamora would be slightly similar, though.