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gaiaswill wrote:Lv 20 Saren, Lv 16 Karen. Totally get my ass kicked by Grob in hard mode. Breza comes in at Lv 12 and is completely useless. There's a fair chance I get wiped in the 1st turn when the wizard in the back nukes, but I would probably die from pressure in 3 turns otherwise anyway. I must be missing something fundamental in setup and tactics. Help?

gaiaswill wrote:Ha! I'm just cheap since consumables are generally something I forget about. I tried haste potions but I suppose there's no substitute for a few bombs to convince an enemy mage to stand down.

I'll have to reload my Chapter 3 save now...

P_Tigras wrote:Another added difficulty with this fight is that Karen's Whirlwind ability is broken. Whirlwind III does not do 130% damage to three nearby targets as its info blurb says. It does 90% damage to one target, and 50% damage to neighboring targets in the same row.

    class Whirlwind3(Whirlwind1):
        cName = "Whirlwind III"
        cDescription = "Hits 3 nearby targets for 130% damage, with 50% chances of causing weakened condition for 7 turns"
        cBranchLevel = 6
        cRequiredLevel = 1
        cRequiredSkills = [FocusTarget3,StrikeThrough3]
        cPower = 1.3
        cCost = 25
        cWait = 9
        cEffects = [WeakenedEffect3]
        cChance = 50

    class ArrowRain3(ArrowRain1):
        cName = "Rain of Arrows III"
        cDescription = "Hits single target for 200% damage and enemies around him take 50% of his damage (AOE)"
        cBranchLevel = 6
        cRequiredLevel = 1
        cRequiredSkills = [Camouflage3,SneakAttack3]
        cPower = 2.0
        cAcc = 1.0
        cCost = 30
        cWait = 7

jack1974 wrote:

P_Tigras wrote:Another added difficulty with this fight is that Karen's Whirlwind ability is broken. Whirlwind III does not do 130% damage to three nearby targets as its info blurb says. It does 90% damage to one target, and 50% damage to neighboring targets in the same row.

That is odd! I checked Whirlwind3 and the parameters are correct:

Code: Select all

    class Whirlwind3(Whirlwind1):
        cName = "Whirlwind III"
        cDescription = "Hits 3 nearby targets for 130% damage, with 50% chances of causing weakened condition for 7 turns"
        cBranchLevel = 6
        cRequiredLevel = 1
        cRequiredSkills = [FocusTarget3,StrikeThrough3]
        cPower = 1.3
        cCost = 25
        cWait = 9
        cEffects = [WeakenedEffect3]
        cChance = 50

the cPower = 1.3 means that the multiplier is x1,3 so in practice 130% of the base attack. Wondering why doesn't work... just for comparison Dora's rain of arrow is defined like this:

Code: Select all

    class ArrowRain3(ArrowRain1):
        cName = "Rain of Arrows III"
        cDescription = "Hits single target for 200% damage and enemies around him take 50% of his damage (AOE)"
        cBranchLevel = 6
        cRequiredLevel = 1
        cRequiredSkills = [Camouflage3,SneakAttack3]
        cPower = 2.0
        cAcc = 1.0
        cCost = 30
        cWait = 7

I think probably the mess is because Dora uses missile while Karen uses a melee weapon even if she is a Thief. It was a bit a risky decision indeed.

Oh well, too late to change now (would mess up all the balancing of the game). Another lesson learned for the future I guess

jack1974 wrote:Ah wait, I found that in Strikethrough there was a parameter: cWeaponCategory = "Close" which I really suppose does the trick
Will include that change in the next update, but until Ren'Py is fixed to work on Mountain Lion will wait (don't want to have two OSes with one version and one with another).

About Karen I remember an user that was enthusiast with her because of the Skill / Speed trick, if you look the first posts in this thread he should explain how to use her, but if I remember correctly she was an useful party member

jack1974 wrote:I'm going to change the effect so that hits a full row on same damage, so hopefully Karen gets some better "ranking" in the party most wanted members

And yes you're right the speed trick was indeed nerfed a bit with the expansion. Interesting what you post, I think the main problem also is your high level. I don't remember exactly (months have passed) but I think when I playtested it every time I was max level 17-18.

• 1) She can't use heavy bows/crossbows.
  2) She can use spears instead.
  3) Heavy bows/crossbows and spears do equivalent damage.
  4) Whirlwind and Leg Break are dependent on ranged damage while Strike Through is dependent on her melee damage.
  5) There is a much better variety of heavy bows/crossbows that do decent damage than light/medium bows/crossbows.

• 1) Thieves that carry heavy bows/crossbows can still take advantage of shield bonuses while Karen who must carry a spear to do similar damage can not.
  
  2) Karen's Whirlwind and Leg Break powers are crippled by the lack of variety in good light/medium bows/crossbows. For example I have yet to find one that does more than 9 fire damage. On the other heavy hell crossbows that do 22 fire damage are plentiful.
  
  3) Karen's Whirlwind power doesn't do the advertised damage to two of the three targets. Dora's Rain of Arrows currently does more damage to all three targets.
  
  4) Karen's Whirlwind which does ranged damage can not be used on the back row, only the front row. Dora's Rain of Arrows which does ranged damage can be used on either the front row or the back row.
  
  5) Karen's Leg Break power does less damage than Dora's Pinning Shot due to Dora's access to better bows..
  
  6) Karen's Leg Break can not be used on a target in the back row, Dora's Pinning Shot can.
  
  7) Dora's Pinning Shot's paralysis effect is superior to Leg Break's slowed effect giving Dora another win.
  
  7) Karen's Strike Through power which does melee damage can be used to damage one enemy in the back row, BUT has a very long delay of 16. Contrast that with Dora's Rain of Arrows which only has a delay of 6 and can hit all three enemies in the back row.
  
  8 ) Karen's Strike Through also does less damage to fewer enemies than Dora's Rain of Arrows.
  
  9) To use all of Karen's powers most effectively in tough encounters, two of her weapon types need to be regularly swapped out instead of just one. This creates a combat prep headache. No other character needs to go through this for two weapons.
  
  10) Investing in a variety of two very different weapon types is also expensive. There is no need to go through this for any other character.

4) Whirlwind and Leg Break are dependent on ranged damage while Strike Through is dependent on her melee damage.

Anima_ wrote:

4) Whirlwind and Leg Break are dependent on ranged damage while Strike Through is dependent on her melee damage.

Actually, Whirlwind and Leg Break can be used either with a melee or a ranged weapon. If you are in the front row and attack targets in the front row the character will automatically use their melee weapon, unless they have none equipped in which case the ranged weapon is used. If you are in the back row the ranged weapons is preferred.

Some skills like Strike Trough are an exception, they can only be used with a melee or ranged weapon. Using a melee weapon from the back row does come with accuracy penalties though, changing all of Karens skills to the close weapon group will basically force her to be in the front row.

The first problem can't really be fixed for Loren, the equipment system was not designed with a melee/ranged weapon in mind. Instead we had two completely separate weapon setups. I can only promise not to repeat that in the new RPG framework.

Actually I think most of the problem come from the fact that Karen was designed as a thief that can fight in the front row.