alpha/prototype build 0.5.1

[jack1974]

I had the enlightenment!
I was using SOTW system, but wasn't really happy about it, until I had the idea: use the Critical Hit value not just for the Critical Strike (double damage) but also to determine the final damage, compared to the target's defense This way putting points in Accuracy makes much more sense too.

In summary the damage is now determined with:
compare attacker's Critical Hit vs defender's Defense, then multiply this by the Attack value (obviously, also considering the skill parameters, so if says "deals 250% base damage" will take this into consideration too).

The result so far are super encouraging, because this way even if you put all points in Attack, you aren't anymore a killing machine like before, and same applies for Critical Hit. You need to balance the two things.

I'll probably upload a new version tomorrow, but I am quite happy about this solution.


See? now AOE spells do valid damage! (in particular on the sides, 50% of the center damage as expected).

[Jaeger]

the system I had in mind would work for example in a card game, where you can lose cards and replace them by other, and with always fixed values, but with level up progression and a RPG gameplay it doesn't work well as I thought!

With the way damage calculation worked and defense breaking, it vaguely reminded me of The Banner Saga. They had a level up system, but it had a lot of restrictions. Attributes points given on level up are on the small side. Each attribute had a maximum value and they varied by character. The level cap was also very small, with 5 being the highest.

I had the enlightenment!
I was using SOTW system, but wasn't really happy about it, until I had the idea: use the Critical Hit value not just for the Critical Strike (double damage) but also to determine the final damage, compared to the target's defense This way putting points in Accuracy makes much more sense too.

In summary the damage is now determined with:
compare attacker's Critical Hit vs defender's Defense, then multiply this by the Attack value (obviously, also considering the skill parameters, so if says "deals 250% base damage" will take this into consideration too).

The result so far are super encouraging, because this way even if you put all points in Attack, you aren't anymore a killing machine like before, and same applies for Critical Hit. You need to balance the two things.

So accuracy also increases damage (not just critical chance)? I'm a little confused here?

[jack1974]

With the way damage calculation worked and defense breaking, it vaguely reminded me of The Banner Saga. They had a level up system, but it had a lot of restrictions. Attributes points given on level up are on the small side. Each attribute had a maximum value and they varied by character. The level cap would was also very small, with 5 being the highest.

Yes indeed. I could probably have kept this if I didn't offer any attribute point, or leveled up the characters based on class automatically, so I could design specific encounters for each level.

So accuracy also increases damage (not just critical chance? I'm a little confused here?

Yes in practice it does. If target defense and attacker accuracy are the same, the damage is the 100% of the attack value. With different values the damage changes in %. For example:
Attacker: Attack 10 Accuracy 4 => Defender: Defense 4 = 10 dmg
Attacker: Attack 10 Accuracy 2 => Defender: Defense 4 = 5 dmg (since accuracy is 50% of defense)
Attacker: Attack 10 Accuracy 4 => Defender: Defense 2 = 15 dmg (since accuracy is 200% of defense)

for a moment considered doing a miss/hit, which is quite common too in games like Blackguards, but I stopped playing that game exactly because of that... nothing more frustrating than missing 4-5 times in a row because of bad luck

[Troyen]

Wait, your last example doesn't make any sense. Why would being 150% of defense result in lower damage than 100% of defense?

Also, if you don't have hit/miss (and I hope you don't add them back!), "Accuracy" seems like the wrong word. From the sound of it, it's function is more like "Penetration" but I don't quite know if this is that kind of game. Maybe something like "Piercing"? (Can your writers help with synonyms?)

[yayswords]

I think it was supposed to say 15 damage. But accuracy is 200% of defense, not 150% Jack.

Anyway, I'm not sure about this. It's not that I don't think it could work, but I think it has needlessly many moving parts. I suggested for SotW long ago that the benefits of overpowering the attack:defense ratio should have diminishing returns; if you have twice the attack you do double damage, but if you have three times the attack you do 2.5x damage, not 3x, etc. That way, huge attack scores don't result in proportionately huge damage numbers, yet there isn't a lame multiplier cap saying stop getting more attack retard it won't do anything at all. Someone better versed in math and programming could come up with a formula easily, I imagine.

However let's not add hit/miss back, especially not tied to single stats. This was another problem of SotW, for example my Ranger/Riley combo with such godly defense that spells missed on a regular basis, and any attack that went through still did pitiful damage. When defense both reduces damage taken and chance to get hit in the first place, it has exponential scaling. Going from 50% dodge and 50% damage reduction to 75% dodge and 75% damage reduction quadruples your survivability.

So anyway, back to your system. Mathematically, it might be sound, but it leaves me wondering when to get accuracy and when to get strength. How does weapon damage factor into the calculations, anyway? And is the skill multiplier (say 200% damage attack) applied at the end of all this?

Is it (attack+weapon damage)*(accuracy/defense)*(skill damage modifier)?

[jack1974]

I think it was supposed to say 15 damage. But accuracy is 200% of defense, not 150% Jack.

Yes exactly, that's what happens when you post formulas after 8h of work

So anyway, back to your system. Mathematically, it might be sound, but it leaves me wondering when to get accuracy and when to get strength. How does weapon damage factor into the calculations, anyway? And is the skill multiplier (say 200% damage attack) applied at the end of all this?

Is it (attack+weapon damage)*(accuracy/defense)*(skill damage modifier)?

Well, I don't have weapon damage. Weapons add to stats (they can add bonuses to existing stats). They are still different since some weapons add 5 attack and others add 5 speed and so on.
I wanted to make a game where I could write a formula (except the mistake I made above because was tired) and everyone could understand it. With SOTW I still can't explain to someone what is the damage formula because there are so many different things (weapon damage, the capped multiplier, etc etc).

In practice you can say that attack is the weapon damage, but in this case you can also raise it with stats (but not much).

Anyway all this theory means nothing, I played the prototype now and works very well, you clearly see what happens every time. So unless someone can show me a clear way to break this system, I'm going to keep it and only tweak the skills

[jack1974]

I've updated the first post with 0.5.1 with the new system, is still with many bugs but just to show the new damage calculation. Unless someone can point me an obvious reason why it sucks (with an example maybe) I'm going to keep it

[yayswords]

So for a basic attack it's just attack*accuracy/defense then? That's easy enough to understand. Assuming they are always equally expensive to raise, it will always pay off more to boost the lower one... actually slightly favoring accuracy since that boosts crit too. I think (if it uses that formula) you might as well have made attack twice as expensive to raise and just used attack^2/defense but let's try this :D

[yayswords]

OMG YOU BROKE OLD SAVES ALL MY PROGRESS IS GONE

Also, tell me this. Poisoned in like all your games reduces crit by 50%. Reducing a percentage by a percentage always gets confusing (although I think there is proper unambiguous wording), so just make it clear. If a character has 50% crit chance and gets poisoned, will it have 25% crit or 0% crit?

[jack1974]

I wanted to have another use for accuracy beside the critical. So the only other options I could think of was to use a "hit/miss" system, but you know I don't like those
Anyway yes, is like what you said, though I don't know how to fix this, and still keep a simple formula. Maybe is just impossible
Or I should do like in Grimrock or many other RPGs, without any attribute increase on level up or minimal, so I could just keep the previous damage=attack-defense and tailor the encounters.

To be honest, the ONLY problem with the system before was when the enemies had more defense than your attack and you hit for 1dmg. But perhaps just allowing fixed attribute increase based on Class or 1 attribute on each level was enough.

Also, tell me this. Poisoned in like all your games reduces crit by 50%. Reducing a percentage by a percentage always gets confusing (although I think there is proper unambiguous wording), so just make it clear. If a character has 50% crit chance and gets poisoned, will it have 25% crit or 0% crit?

It should have 25%, if is not like that is a bug