alpha/prototype build 0.5.1

[yayswords]

The formula is easily applied at least. I can figure out what damage I will do without looking at the predictions.

Debuffs like Poisoned/Burning/Weakened will throw the numbers around a bit, but generally you could tell a novice player to just raise acc/atk equally and that should be like 80-90% optimal.

[jack1974]

Cool at least we agree on one thing, now is super easy to understand, is what I wanted

Hmm maybe I could have attack influence by how much the defense is lowered on each hit? In practice I'm thinking a way to make attack more attractive, so people don't just put all points in accuracy Or maybe I could have it influence the duration of the negative conditions (need to check if it's possible).
Or if I bring back the old progressive attributes system that would work too (since after 10 you need 2 attribute points, after 20 you need 3 and so on).

[yayswords]

I don't think people will put everything in accuracy, not even in the accuracy vs. strength decision. There's a mathematical rule/trick/whatever which tells us (not primarily perhaps, but it does) that if you split a number into two terms, and then multiply them, you'll get the largest product if they are equally split.

Okay that sounded nerdy, but look at this. Let's say you have 20 attribute points to divide between str and acc, and both are at 0.

If you put 15 in acc and 5 in str, you'll have 15*5=75 "attack power" or whatever we wanna call it.
If you put 18 in acc and 2 in str, you'll have 36...
If you put 10 in each, you'll have 100.

If you're looking to use the mathematical rule here, just call a 10 and b whatever you want to steal from one and give to the other. Then you get (10+b)(10-b)=100-b^2, which is greatest (100) when b=0.

So obviously accuracy also gives us crit, but even if we compare the smallest uneven split to the equal split, meaning 11 acc/9 str to 10 of each, we have

99 attack power, 11% crit
vs
100 attack power, 10% crit

We can average 1% crit out to +1% damage, so they become

99*1.11=109.89
100*1.1=110

And the even split is still better. If we have 100 stat points to allocate and we go 51/49 vs 50/50:

55*49*1.51=3773.49
50*50*1.5=3750

Accuracy has become very slightly favored somewhere between the 20 and 100 stat point total, but we're talking 23.5 "raw damage" when we're already dealing with 3700; it's not even 1% better to start going for uneven distribution.

So yeah you don't really need to worry. Of course it would be nice if strength had another bonus, but the added crit from accuracy doesn't really hold strength back much. I'd still raise them equally and what would change it is the occurrence of attack/crit reducing debuffs. And that gets really nerdy to calculate because Poisoned is much more heavy on your crit than Burning/Weakened is on your attack, but it's just your crit, not your accuracy it lowers, so I'm not gonna try to figure that out right now

[jack1974]

Ah true, you're right OK for now will keep it like that and focus on finishing the skills, in particular the mage ones
The only thing I'm unsure is if to keep the 1 attribute each level up as it is now, or bring back the 3+ attributes (depending on difficulty level) and the progressive reduction...

[yayswords]

I was wrong when I said Burning/Weakened/Poisoned will throw the numbers around a bit. Okay, it's true Poisoned will, but as I already posted, the added crit barely changes the balance at all so if it can go down in this or that fight that doesn't really matter either.

Anyway, since it's all just one... not even long multiplication, and multiplication is commutative (=order doesn't matter), it doesn't make any difference if Burning/Weakened reduce attack or accuracy, the end result is -20% damage anyway, no matter what balance of the stats you currently have. Also holds true for Rampage, but not for Frenzy, since that's a flat addition.

I guess it's added clarity when you can think of +x% attack as +x% damage.

[Troyen]

Something that's been an issue with mage spells in all the other RPGs is each element applies a specific debuff, and some are very much better than the others, namely Slowed and Shattered, because they benefit your entire team's offense (more attacks between enemy turns and more damage). If you're going with the same debuffs on the same elements, it would be neat if you can figure out some way to encourage casting multiple elements, so there is some variety in skill choices.

The resistance/immunity system and the environmental "bonus" attempted this, but didn't quite work out. Immunities just denied you a debuff and the "bonus" forced you into picking whatever school was good for the act.

What if instead you could work out some gameplay where there was a bonus to using multiple schools of magic? Though I'm not quite sure on how to do this while still avoiding a set rotation that you would just use every fight. In terms of flavor, seems like fire might be good for clustered enemies, and then you have some single target options - maybe ice for thieves, earth for warriors, and air for mages. Or make them theme-based, fire spells built around dots, ice spells built around comboing off each other, etc.

I don't know, but I think the mage skills need the most work - they've been around in generally the same form for a while now.

[yayswords]

Strike Through doesn't agree with the new damage calculation. 7 str, 8 acc, ST novice deals 3 damage? It "should" deal 28, but that would be OP as hell making even Strike Through (Novice) the same as attacking an enemy with 2 defense. Anyway 3 damage sounds like just dealing 50% of strength as damage which isn't going to be exciting unless the opponent has tons and tons of armor.

@Troyen - a few ideas on that, for example if more power is moved into the DoT then you would at least not chain cast the same nuke on the same target. I also had the idea that Burning does more damage, but it also damages anyone who tries to interact with the victim.

[jack1974]

I was wrong when I said Burning/Weakened/Poisoned will throw the numbers around a bit. Okay, it's true Poisoned will, but as I already posted, the added crit barely changes the balance at all so if it can go down in this or that fight that doesn't really matter either.

I haven't checked those yet, but I could probably just use fixed numbers. Even if I raised HP pools a bit as you noticed, a 2hp/turn damage is still noticeable

Something that's been an issue with mage spells in all the other RPGs is each element applies a specific debuff, and some are very much better than the others, namely Slowed and Shattered, because they benefit your entire team's offense (more attacks between enemy turns and more damage). If you're going with the same debuffs on the same elements, it would be neat if you can figure out some way to encourage casting multiple elements, so there is some variety in skill choices.

Yes, but I am not sure I want to include elemental attacks for Warrior/Thief, would look a bit strange. I am even considering removing the elemental aspect itself. So it's only about damage + effect.
I think it could be balanced this way, like:
- Fire = maybe higher hit damage, but then lower DoT
- Freeze = lower initial damage, but slow
- Poison = normal initial damage, but longer DoT

I had put Freeze for now in the combo skill exactly because of that, because the slow effect is very powerful, so I wanted it not to be available easily.

Strike Through doesn't agree with the new damage calculation.

Yes that's broken. I tried to make it ignore armor but would result in insane damage so I think will change the texts saying it ignores 50% of armor value, that way shouldn't be too powerful.

I also had the idea that Burning does more damage, but it also damages anyone who tries to interact with the victim.

Hehe that would be fun to do.

I think anyway the balancing could be obtained like I said, tweaking the DoT length or effect itself. Another idea, using yaysword as base, is that every spell would have a counter-effect:
- Burning, burn anyone who uses melee
- Freeze, slow down but increase their armor (since they would be hard as ice )
stuff like that, of course only for mage stuff. Poison would just do poison and nothing else.

[yayswords]

I haven't checked those yet, but I could probably just use fixed numbers.

No I was talking about their effect on your damage output. At first I thought you should get a little extra attack because Burning/Weakened will sometimes reduce it, but in actuality these debuffs (or the Rampage buff) don't change the optimal balance.

so I think will change the texts saying it ignores 50% of armor value, that way shouldn't be too powerful.

With the way defense works now, ignoring 50% of defense is the same as a 200% attack. And the only way it won't be that is if the target is all the way down to 0 defense, but I've already seen numbers get ridiculous enough before you get that low. At 0 defense you die from a fart, unless the division by 0 crashes the game. If this is supposed to be the answer to high defense we need a different mechanic.

Brute Force: Deals 200% your strength as damage. Ignores defense.

[jack1974]

No I was talking about their effect on your damage output. At first I thought you should get a little extra attack because Burning/Weakened will sometimes reduce it, but in actuality these debuffs (or the Rampage buff) don't change the optimal balance.

Ah OK, good then.

With the way defense works now, ignoring 50% of defense is the same as a 200% attack. And the only way it won't be that is if the target is all the way down to 0 defense, but I've already seen numbers get ridiculous enough before you get that low. At 0 defense you die from a fart, unless the division by 0 crashes the game. If this is supposed to be the answer to high defense we need a different mechanic.

Brute Force: Deals 200% your strength as damage. Ignores defense.

Lol I just tried, and with Kira 8 AT and 6 AC against 1 DF = 48 dmg (with a simple melee attack)
Perhaps I should just do this instead, normal hits don't decrease defense/armor anymore, but only selected skills (like Strikethrough or Thalia's Backstab). Probably is a wiser idea. The previous mechanic worked fine with low numbers, but now reducing target's defense even just by 1 each hit has much devastating impact!