Features you want the most?

[jack1974]

I can name a LOT of successful book/movies/games using the "must defeat supreme evil" clichè. That said, yes in the sequel we'll aim at a story more original.
I understand what you mean, more GREY characters. But doing it in a RPG is not the same as doing it in a book/movie where there's not a "player" but a passive spectator. You can kill characters, you can do anything. In a RPG you can't kill off main party character (well, unless they're Mesphit ) and other restrictions.
So I'm sorry but when you say "you really need a good storywriter" I don't agree. FOR YOU. For me, and many other people, the writer of Loren did a good job. Then the story might have been clichè but wasn't her fault, was mine since I designed the plot

About racism I really don't understand what you're trying to say... I am not going to put extreme violence or sexual themes like Game of Thrones, if that's what you're asking. I simply cannot risk that for a thousand reasons.

[Carnwulf]

Of course you can not satisfy everybody, therefore you have to do what you feel is best, but i stay true to my conviction that Loren 1 was an clischee like story. You are right that many very renown stories have the good/evil clischee ploit. The most famous i think is Lord of the Rings. And thats the point! Since Tollkien, for i don´t know how many DECADES, too many stories come up with the Evil/Good Tollien like Plot. You might aargue and say that you think that this is a good one, but you cannot deny that it is a very often repeated clischee. And i get really tired of it.

When i was talking about not doing the racism message, i was not encouraging you, to put explicit violence or sex (Ok the sex would not be that bad. I read that you want to make Loren 2 a little bit tamer. I liked it how it was at Loren 1 -Karen+Elenor- ) into your games. I just brought game ogf thrones up for a good story-example, but the Sex/Violencew/Torture Thing is not to my taste. How can i explain better in englisch which is not my mother language?

Well its again a clischee very often repeated in books movies and clischees. Two countries, races or organisations whatever are a terrible war with each other, and than in some kind of hero stands up and calls out:" Wait you two! Look at you. Basicly you are the same, and if you work together you can build something great!" And then both enemies glance at each other slap themselves into their Faces and call out:"Thzank you noble hero. Honestly we think this all not through. Yeah we just stop hating each other, forget about doing 100 years bloody conflict go home and do a dance Party. Finally someone opened our eyes!!!"

You have EXACTLY this or a similar pattern in Movies, Books and Computer Games. You know the first dozen Times you still say. Oh thats a cool thing. Than the next dozend times you start thinking:"Nah its Ok but slowly gets boring." And the next hundred times you are nothing but annoyed about this "Bridge of friendship between enemies" plot solution. You have this thing for example in Movies like Kingdom of Heaven, where they keep repelling the message over an over "If Christians Jews an Muslims would stop making war, the world would be a better place." You have it in Tollkien where Elrond says:"The Races of Middle-Earth have to ally themselves with each other or they will fall." This is like the "evil guy conquers the world" chlischee, an OVERUSED story twist.
And Loren has it also with the Human Elf Conflict.

Many people liked the story of Loren 1? I doubt it. Maybe people like me who understood the strong points of the game, which i mentioned before bought it, and maybe some who are not so tired of the good evil clischee liked it.
But i can hardly imagine all the players looking at Mwuhahah Fnost and saying:"Woah this is such a well crafted unique-Villain. Never seen this before." or hearing the solution of the elf/Human war plot :"We will restore peace and overcome the 100 years of hatred." and start crying with tears in the eyes:"This is sooo beautiful. I have never seen something like this before!!!!"
So i think many people bought Loren and like it (like i do), but i don´t think many people want to give Loren an Oscar for its story. Many Reviews put it more or less in the same way. For example: http://beliar-cos.blogspot.com/2013/04/ ... 4c27877a33

I am not telling this because i want to curse you developers, but because i care about this game and think that it is so immensly painful to have at one side, wonderful 3-dimensional charackters and on the other hand a really one-dimensional clischee villain. On the one hand you have tasteful dialogues and romances and 1 minute later you read the "Lets just stop being hateful and racistic" clischee message. If the story would be al little bit more unique and the villain would be well crafted like the charackters, Loren 2 will be a feast! If Death Knight Dude Fost just gets replaced by another evil-World Conquerer
then again a lot of potential will be lost...

Again. I just critizise whats worthy of my critizism. So basicly i think Loren is a good game, think of it a little bit like with mass effect 3. Mass Effect was great and the Fans did run amok about the ending of ME3 because in comparison to the extremly well written rest, the ending was painfully dull. The same way Loren 1 is crafted well, and because it is written so good, these Clischee Moments hit you really painfully.

[jack1974]

Yes no worries I understood your message. The basic plot (but is not set in stone) for the sequel is written already, and it's very different. In some ways, this first game had to be done this way to lead to the sequel events (we had to establish the demons and tell about the war, so people will experience the sequel events better). Similarly with my other game Planet Stronghold, the first game might have not been very original, but it has set the background for the sequel which won't tell the story of an invincible hero, but more of a now famous hero that has to face some really basic problems (like feeding people of a colony).

Ultimately don't worry, will try to make things different on next games, but remember that there will still be some clichè in it, since is basically impossible to create a "new story" nowadays. But more original, yes.
By the way about the originality, the game story is already very unique by the fact that you don't play the main character. How many other games (and RPG in particular) did that? I think is the first case (correct me if I'm wrong). So it's not such a trainwreck after all

[DunKalar]

Sadly, storywriting is never that easy. I have been writing plots for pen & paper games and I made the experiance, that players become confused if you alternate a story too much. Many people want the "good old linear plot" and do not get along with a dynamic, chaoticly acting genius opponent, because they are so used to play linear stories over and over again. So if you really want to establish a great saga, you have to start where people are and slowy start showing them the way to another kind of story, where good and evil are relative perspectives that change dynamically.

Dragon Age Origins was good at this, e.g. King Belen. He wa sa total douche bag who murdered everyone in his way, sold out his own brothers/sisters and crushed every opstacle with maximum force. He seemed to be the total villain - but after his coronation he surprisingly did what needed to be done to give his people a new hope for a better future. But it was a long way to go, even in the story development.

So I can understand that Jack starts where his players are and now starts to build his own way (at least I hope so ). And of course I hope, that some of the romances will be as dynamic as they used to be (e.g. Elenor - Karenn or Elenor - Chamby). Breza, who was a total arse towards the slaves has the high potential for a very explosive and dynamic romance-story :-3.

As everytime, all we can do is sit and wait for Jack to finish his games ... and brag him afterwards what he need to add to his future games *hrhr*

[Aleema]

Jack is giving me more control over Planet Stronghold 2's plot, however I will be getting another plot outline for Loren 2. That said, Jack routinely listens to my suggestions and it's not a problem to fix anything. I actually do agree with the plot being generic (to establish lore and a status quo), but you will not see this be the case again in the sequel, from what I understand. It definitely has you question what is "evil" and what is "good."

[jack1974]

Yes the plot outline for Loren 2 was done in a month last Summer by another friend writer (yes time flies!) so I could have the artist start on the new art. It was too hot for me to think during that time, so asked for help...
So basically the art is being made since almost ONE YEAR and is not done yet! Just so you have an idea how it works, what's behind what might seem just a simple indie game. It's really not easy to plan things in advance and at same time is impossible to have the amount of art needed done quickly without sacrificing quality.
Anyway, the art done so far covers the main cast and some scenes which can still leave much freedom to the writer (Aleema in this case). But even the current plot outline is quite original, don't worry

[biscuit]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents so it does not feel like a total damper-fest:

Yes, as previously acknowledged, Loren 1's plot was rather bland. However, it was well-written; there is a difference between the two. Aleema's writing really brought the characters to life, even the ones that at first seem like one-dimensional archetypes. The romances (at least the ones I played) were genuinely touching, and I liked the lore and history as hinted at through the game.

And maybe I'm a weirdo... but I have a bit of nostalgia for some of the simple, linear plots in fantasy. When everything else is well-written, but the plot is straight forward, it feels a bit like a callback or homage to established tropes and cultural expectations of fantasy.

That said, I am looking forward to Loren 2's improved plot with all the suggestions!

[jack1974]

And maybe I'm a weirdo... but I have a bit of nostalgia for some of the simple, linear plots in fantasy. When everything else is well-written, but the plot is straight forward, it feels a bit like a callback or homage to established tropes and cultural expectations of fantasy.

Yes that too. I got a lot of feedback and 99% was along those lines. Of course I cannot know the reaction of ALL people who played the games, and are a lot (considering even those who did it for free... ) but when the original poster said that "Many people liked the story of Loren 1? I doubt it." he really has no data to say that, beside his own ideas. Is enough to browse the forums to see that the vast majority of people think exactly as you, biscuit (and I got a lot of private feedback by email as well).
I'll be interested to see how the next RPG games do, since they'll be much more original. But another aspect of running a business is doing what people want and not what "critics" want. In other words if another RPG with a super original plot but badly written characters does worse sales-wise, I would do Loren1 again and again

[MarSel]

I would just like to say Originality is over rated! Yes we all love a mind bending story that take you here, there and everywhere. BUT I love going back to older games and playing again because who doesn't want to fight the evil king/god (whatever!) and rescue the rubbish princess (even more annoy what they are a kick ass player character and you think how did they get captured again?!?!) and fall in love. Final Fantasy 9 comes to mind! Original in places but over all been done before.

[Carnwulf]

Sadly, storywriting is never that easy. I have been writing plots for pen & paper games and I made the experiance, that players become confused if you alternate a story too much. Many people want the "good old linear plot" and do not get along with a dynamic, chaoticly acting genius opponent, because they are so used to play linear stories over and over again. So if you really want to establish a great saga, you have to start where people are and slowy start showing them the way to another kind of story, where good and evil are relative perspectives that change dynamically.

I am also doing pen and paper story writing for over 16 years Years and i agree with you. If a story is confusing those of your players who like to smoke marihuana and have even problems to remember their own names get confused by the numbers of NPC, their Background stories and Agendas. So it is not easy to do a intertwined good story. Also like with hopefully Loren 1 and Loren 2 stories can evolve over time. Also writers get better over time. I found recently the very first Pen & Paper Adventure i have written fopr my friends when i was 15. OMG. WTF have i done there. It was the most lame clischee story of a Mummy sitting in a grave with skeletons who werer swarming over a nearby village, and the villagers ask the heroes for help! but hey i was 15 and when i write nowadays adventures or even whole Background-Information to our Pen&Paper RPG it is much better now. Therefore every Writer needs to evolve somehow over time, to hopefully find the skill to overcome the worst Clischeewriting.

Also Jack is right when he says, that there is no way to tell a completely new story. I agree. We humans are basicly the same so all our stories evolve around Power, Love, Greed, War and Peace and all the other emotions and social things we know of. And i am not expecting totally new stories. Lets put it this way. I just want stories who are not completly new but avoid the worst overused clischees. I stated two of them already out.

Sometimes even if a clischee is used, it might be allright if it is well presented, so that it gives you some kind of new feeling. For me, the Reapers from Mass Effect where the total Clischee-evil-world oh pardon universe-Destroyers. But around them there were created Questions and certain things which were unique. For example that they did not destroy everybody, but just evolved cultures. So they were a clischee which was spiced up with an interesting somehow fresh feeling background.

So basicly sometimes even a well told clischee can be quite charming. For example to save the princess might be interesting if the princess turns out to be a arrogant Person, or her Kingdom did not wanted her to be saved or some other details around the clischee might spice it up. Therefore i am not totally against a clischee if it is at least has a new perspective on it.

And there again Fost didn´t have this nice Details or new perspective around him, so he stayed one-Dimensional. No question about him or his minions where clear. If they were i didn´t catch it. Why did Grob and Jul follow him? What is his goal? How can he get the support of all this demons? Are some kind of dark gods backing him up? Are the gods who send the Hawk/Ember Blade to the hero some kind of godly enemies of Fosts dark gods? I could go on with this for hours, but i think the point is clear. If its a clischee, it has to has at least a solid background, with questions who will be answered over time, piece by piece, to make the player enjoying puzzling everything together.

But since i know that Jack said he wants to introduce more grey charas, and let Aleema do the story a little bit different, i still hope that Loren 2 turns out to be a nice romantic good RPG, who does not need to invent the wheel of storywriting new, but tells a more unique story.