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josipa24 wrote:

P_Tigras wrote:
In the end it's up to Jack and Aleema, and their vision of the character. So anything is possible. Nevertheless unless she was pretending during that encounter in the original game you mentioned, it certainly appeared that Jul not only has a sexual interest in both genders, but also in pretty much every character in the party.

Well personally, I didn't see that encounter in this light at all. Admittedly, it's been a while since I last played the game, so I might be way off, but I remember the incident as Jul extending her succubusy power over the whole team just to make sure they were incapacitated and not a threat anymore. It's her greatest skill (although she's not a slouch in battle either). Walking around them and touching them to make sure the seduction was deep and complete, that they were under her power. In other words, it was about fulfilling orders and about the team's attraction to her, not the other way around. Not about any particular desire on Jul's side to sleep with any of them (or all of them), although she might not have kicked some of them out of her bed later :D. I think she'd do exactly the same thing if our team consisted of horribly unatractive creatures.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jul found horribly unattractive creatures attractive too, like the way a lot of people consider bulldogs adorable. So that in itself wouldn't mean anything. Demons tend to be perverse, they're demons after all. While your alternate explanation is plausible, there isn't yet enough evidence to decide one way or another with any real certainty. So there is room for debate. Allow me to further add that just because I see it as likely that physical appearance or form isn't a strong factor in determining her interest in sleeping with someone, doesn't mean I believe she has no standards at all.

This is one of the reasons I'm looking forward to romancing her in the sequel. I think it'll be very interesting to see how she deals with Elenor and the growing attraction between them. I mean, this is a woman who is probably used to being despised just for being who she is (demoness), but who also knows she can make people want her with only a mental effort. She has so much power at her fingertips, but if she uses it, anything she'd gain wouldn't be real. And when something real starts blossoming between her and Elenor, it's bound to make her a bit nervous. Add to that the fact that she already put her spell over Elenor in the first game and the possible guilt it might trigger...This might be a gold mine for character development.

Given her powers, I don't think she's had to deal with being despised all that much during her, what is very likely, centuries of existence. She's far more likely to have dealt with humans from a position of power and control, wrapping countless men and women around her pinky whenever she desired. And given her tendency to treat other people as toys, I'm not inclined to think she cares whether or not anything meets your definition of real as long as she gets what she wants. Enchanting someone into loving you from a demon's perspective is much more reliable and easily maintained over the years than trying to convince them to love you and then hoping they never fall out of love with you. Real gold obtained through magic is just as real and requires much less effort than obtaining that same real gold without magic. Her views may evolve in Loren 2 however as she appears to become something of a prisoner.

P_Tigras wrote:That all depends on whether Chambara felt in control or not. Jul is very, very hot. And Chambara isn't the sort to be prejudiced against demons. I don't doubt Chambara is going to be attracted to her and want her for herself. So don't look at it simply as a matter of whether or not Chambara is willing to give a competitor a chance. She wouldn't. Chambara is much more likely to simply tell Elenor, her obedient slave, that she intends to take Jul as a lover, and if Elenor is good, Chambara may share her with Jul for a night or two as well. From Chambara's perspective Elenor is the one who will be surrendering even more of herself by allowing Chambara to take another lover, one who Chambara may choose to share with Elenor when she feels like it. For Chambara it would be a way for her to extend her control over Elenor, and given the way she appears to be wired, I'm fairly certain that would be a big turn on for her. So as long as Chambara feels totally in control, it's doable, but perhaps not in the way some players may prefer.

Again, we seem to see Chambara completely differently. And the extent of Elenor's submissiveness. I think you see them more as a slave/mistress type of relationship, and I see them more as a dom/sub. Sexually at least, because my Elenor isn't submissive at all outside of the bedroom. But even in the slave/mistress dynamic, Elenor's feelings about inviting someone else into their bed would be important, as important as Chambara's. They wouldn't be just dismissed or not even considered like you say. Then the dynamic switches to abusive.

Sorry, but I see Elenor's personality as naturally somewhat submissive even outside of the bedroom. Even when she's standing up for a cause that she feels is important, she's all too often neglecting her own best interest while looking out for someone else's well-being which she treats as more important than her own. I'm not by any means suggesting that this sort of relationship should be forced on an unwilling Elenor however. I think Elenor should have the right to protest, and that if she did, Chambara would let it go. Another possibility would be to give Elenor the chance to offer up the possibility of a threesome with Jul that centers around Chambara's pleasure as a kind of gift, and if she doesn't, then it never happens.

And while I think Chambara might be attracted to Jul (she is very, very hot like you said), I don't see her ever sharing Elenor with anyone. She spent half of the game being jealous about Elenor's connection with Loren and I haven't flirted with the Princess once. And when I did, Chambara made sure to voice her displeasure(in her own way).

Not the same thing. Chambara had no control over Elenor's relationship with Loren, worse, Elenor was legally Loren's slave, when Chambara wanted Elenor for herself. So of course Chambara was going to be jealous of Loren's claim on Elenor -and- Elenor's acceptance of that claim. The fact that Loren didn't take advantage of it was secondary to the fact that if Loren had snapped her fingers and demanded it, she could bed Elenor at any time. As I said previously, control is very important to Chambara.

There are D/s relationships which are completely monogamous as appears to be your personal preference for very understandable reasons, there are D/s relationships where the dominant partner may take lovers while the submissive partner must remain exclusive, there are D/s relationships where the dominant partner may not only take lovers, but may decide to include their submissive partner in the bedroom play with their lover, who may or may not also be submissive, and there are D/s relationships in which a third partner is taken on as part of a triad, ie. where everyone has a commitment to everyone else. These are not the only possible arrangements, but they seem to be some of the more common ones in a D/s context.

Given what we know so far of Chambara, she has to be the most dominant partner of the arrangement to feel comfortable with it. Furthermore she is not likely to tolerate any competition for Elenor. That doesn't mean Chambara wouldn't enjoy having the hands and lips of both Elenor and Jul on her at the same time. So I see it as very possible as long as Chambara feels in complete control of the menage-a-trois, which very likely means that she's going to be the center of the V unless -she- is in the mood to change things up.

P_Tigras wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if Jul found horribly unattractive creatures attractive too, like the way a lot of people consider bulldogs adorable. So that in itself wouldn't mean anything.

I just mentioned unattractiveness specifically to underline my point - that the scene wasn't about Jul's preferences at all, in my opinion.

P_Tigras wrote:Demons tend to be perverse, they're demons after all.

This is really problematic. I'm not sure you can say all demons are whatever, the same way you can't say all women are like this or all blonde people are like that. Especially not for Jul, if we want to look at her as a character and not a caricature without agency. Plus, I think this point will be the plot of Loren 2 actually :D, that demons are not the way we viewed them till now.

P_Tigras wrote: While your alternate explanation is plausible, there isn't yet enough evidence to decide one way or another with any real certainty. So there is room for debate. Allow me to further add that just because I see it as likely that physical appearance or form isn't a strong factor in determining her interest in sleeping with someone, doesn't mean I believe she has no standards at all.

Yes, thank you. Just because she's pansexual doesn't mean Jul has to be attracted to even a single member of the party, let alone all of them. It just increases the likelihood of some chemistry happening.
And I also agree we can't be sure about what really happened in this instance because we don't know much about Jul yet, but I think that debating is really interesting - seeing how very differently other people read the same scene.

P_Tigras wrote: Given her powers, I don't think she's had to deal with being despised all that much during her, what is very likely, centuries of existence. She's far more likely to have dealt with humans from a position of power and control, wrapping countless men and women around her pinky whenever she desired. And given her tendency to treat other people as toys, I'm not inclined to think she cares whether or not anything meets your definition of real as long as she gets what she wants.

Yes she has power over humans, but she must know that it's all smoke and mirrors, even when they're under her thumb, catering to her whims. If she didn't use it, she would be despised and ostracized, just on the basis of what she is.
As we've seen with both the humans and elves - demons are absolutely hated, creatures to be killed on sight and with a succubus it is probably even worse, because they know that she can manipulate their minds. I mean, Chambara is hunted for what she does and she is a human who only dabbles in the dark arts. To the races of the Loren universe, the demons are evil personified.
And if you're right about her age (which I'm not sure you are), Jul has had a long time to get used to the idea that she can't be anything different, because no one would let her. If we assume that demons are indeed not all the same - born evil and that's it ( and I don't think they are), there must have been a time when Jul wondered about her position in the world. We don't know for how long she's been under Fost's boot or how she came to be there, but she is not in charge of her life. And even if she could run away from Fost, she can't hide her tail and wings and see what it's like to live any other way.
So by the time we meet her, I think she has internalized all that crap that's been thrown her way. I think she might feel trapped and alienated, but tries to fight against the idea. She convinces herself that she is a demon, after all, so she must be like all the others.
She uses her power freely, even has fun with it , but she still must know that her triumph is hollow. And it is definitely hollow because she stays in the exact same place. At least until she's freed from Fost (of coirse that's when our team finds her)

P_Tigras wrote: Enchanting someone into loving you from a demon's perspective is much more reliable and easily maintained over the years than trying to convince them to love you and then hoping they never fall out of love with you.

Enchanting someone into loving you would certainly be more reliable and easier to maintain, but it's also so inferior to having a real connection that I'm not sure why it would be even considered, unless it's the only way- which, for Jul, it might very well have been.

P_Tigras wrote: Real gold obtained through magic is just as real and requires much less effort than obtaining that same real gold without magic. Her views may evolve in Loren 2 however as she appears to become something of a prisoner.

False comparison. Even if you accept equating human companionship (or elven, or dwarven) with a material possession, it still isn't true, putting aside the consent issues.
It would be more like if Jul wanted gold (companionship, sex, relationship), but no one would trade with her because she's a demon, so she magicked gold out of mud, only it was far less shiny and brown (because when she enchants someone, they completely lose themselves and become slaves to her will.) Not what she wanted at all.
And this is not just 'my definition of real', like you said. The idea that a bond that evolves freely and without coercion by magic is somehow of the same value as the one that happens only because a demoness willed it into existence...Well, that's completely alien to me.
And if Jul trully wanted a connection with another being, but didnt know any other way than to use her powers - then that's a truly devastating thought.

P_Tigras wrote:
Sorry, but I see Elenor's personality as naturally somewhat submissive even outside of the bedroom. Even when she's standing up for a cause that she feels is important, she's all too often neglecting her own best interest while looking out for someone else's well-being which she treats as more important than her own. I'm not by any means suggesting that this sort of relationship should be forced on an unwilling Elenor however. I think Elenor should have the right to protest, and that if she did, Chambara would let it go. Another possibility would be to give Elenor the chance to offer up the possibility of a threesome with Jul that centers around Chambara's pleasure as a kind of gift, and if she doesn't, then it never happens.

I strongly disagree with this. Obeying orders from your Queen isn't a sign of submissivness, and neither is putting the welfare of others before your own, especially in the face of a demon invasion. It's not weakness to put aside your personal interest, it's strength. To stay because others need you. More on this below, because it ties to my thoughts about Chambara.

P_Tigras wrote:Not the same thing. Chambara had no control over Elenor's relationship with Loren, worse, Elenor was legally Loren's slave, when Chambara wanted Elenor for herself. So of course Chambara was going to be jealous of Loren's claim on Elenor -and- Elenor's acceptance of that claim. The fact that Loren didn't take advantage of it was secondary to the fact that if Loren had snapped her fingers and demanded it, she could bed Elenor at any time. As I said previously, control is very important to Chambara.

Uh. Why should Chambara have any control over Elenor's relationship with others? She shouldn't have control over Elenor's relationship with Chambara herself! This is not what a D/s relationship is about. And I didn't read it like that in the game at all.

But I do agree that Chambara would be jealous of Elenor's acceptance of being Loren's slave (especially after Elenor refuses to switch mistresses and gets insulted by Chambara seeing her as a simple slave). And I definitely agree that Chambara has a very strong need to control.
It's no surprise, if you look at her childhood - an orphan left at the magic academy where she almost got killed by the people who were supposed to protect her. And for what - for doing something they didn't understand or were afraid of. In her mind, I think she feels she has to control everything so that she won't be left to the mercy of others (and their lesser minds) ever again. Also, I can see a few paralels between her and Jul here - alienation and a sense of otherness, coupled with an underlying anger. So she moves away as far from everyone as she can (her own little kingdom in the swamp), she has a few flings all on her terms and tells herself she doesn't need anything more.
And when she does meet Elenor, she tries to make her her own in the only way she knows how. But I don't think she ever succeeds. Or at least, not in the way she planned to.
And it turns out better in the end, because Chambara isn't attracted to Elenor's submissiveness, or at least not completely, she is attracted to her strength. She even says something along the lines of (can't remember the exact quote): "I can't stop myself from being drawn to someone like you."
Because she's never met someone like Elenor, who effortlessly does the right thing all the time and who doesn't see her only as a dark witch but as a person. Someone she can rely on to watch her back, in battle and out of it. Also you'll notice that when she finds out Elenor has dark magic, superior to her own even, Chambara's first instinct is to help her learn, not enter a power struggle - the evidence that she's grown.
And after when they consumate their relationship, Chambara may be the dom, but that doesn't mean she has the absolute control, because she learned that she has to let go of some of her own. She let Elenor inside, shared more of herself than with anyone, and later she even relinquishes her fortress when they start living together.

P_Tigras wrote:There are D/s relationships which are completely monogamous as appears to be your personal preference, there are D/s relationships where the dominant partner may take lovers while the submissive partner must remain exclusive, there are D/s relationships where the dominant partner may not only take lovers, but may decide to include their submissive partner in the bedroom play with their lover, who may or may not also be submissive, and there are D/s relationships in which a third partner is taken on as part of a triad, ie. where everyone has a commitment to everyone else. These are not the only possible arrangements, but they seem to be some of the more common ones in a D/s context.

Yes, I'm aware.
And while monogamy is indeed my preference, I don't think I'm blind to the other options. Are they a possibility? Yes, but I haven't seen any indication of them in this game.

P_Tigras wrote:Given what we know so far of Chambara, she has to be the most dominant partner of the arrangement to feel comfortable with it. Furthermore she is not likely to tolerate any competition for Elenor. That doesn't mean Chambara wouldn't enjoy having the hands and lips of both Elenor and Jul on her at the same time. So I see it as very possible as long as Chambara feels in complete control of the menage-a-trois, which very likely means that she's going to be the center of the V unless -she- is in the mood to change things up.

Maybe Chambara is indeed a pure dom (it seems the most likely as it stands now, although I can see her switch here and there if she becomes more comfortable with Elenor), but we have seen anything so far about her being into threesomes or moresomes. I suppose you could headcanon it that way, if you wanted, though. I certainly have a pretty detailed headcanon of my own, as you can see above.

These replies are getting rather long, so I'm going to break the discussions of Jul and Chambara into two separate posts. This post will deal with Jul.

josipa24 wrote:

P_Tigras wrote:Demons tend to be perverse, they're demons after all.

This is really problematic. I'm not sure you can say all demons are whatever, the same way you can't say all women are like this or all blonde people are like that. Especially not for Jul, if we want to look at her as a character and not a caricature without agency. Plus, I think this point will be the plot of Loren 2 actually :D, that demons are not the way we viewed them till now.

This is the demonic version of the old nature vs nurture question. Are demons born evil? Or are they just raised to be evil? If it's the latter then there is certainly room for redemption. And even if they are generally born evil, there may be room for a handful of exceptions. That said, if all demons from the day of birth have to face murderous urges that are at least as powerful as the ones Mesphit faced, that would suggest that any exceptions for full blooded demons would be very, very rare.

P_Tigras wrote: While your alternate explanation is plausible, there isn't yet enough evidence to decide one way or another with any real certainty. So there is room for debate. Allow me to further add that just because I see it as likely that physical appearance or form isn't a strong factor in determining her interest in sleeping with someone, doesn't mean I believe she has no standards at all.

Yes, thank you. Just because she's pansexual doesn't mean Jul has to be attracted to even a single member of the party, let alone all of them. It just increases the likelihood of some chemistry happening.

I'm clearly leaning a bit on my understanding of the demons, particularly succubi, that I've encountered in other settings wherein the succubi were rather voracious sexually, and the power they could gain by either manipulating or simply sucking the life energy out of someone was far more important to them than their partner's physical appearance. And to this type of demon, every living intelligent being has some value as a sex partner, even an ugly, smelly old homeless person, but that doesn't mean the ugly, smelly old homeless person would be as attractive to her as a king filled with life, regardless of whether or not the king is also physically ugly and/or smelly. She'd also take the ugly, smelly king filled with life over a handsome, sweet-smelling peasant of poor constitution because that's how they're wired. Although being an immoral demon, she'd have no reservations against formally being in the relationship with the ugly King while cuckolding him secretly with the captain of his guard, and if she can find an open block of time, engage in a one night stand with the handsome peasant to boot. Succubi are not known for their loyalty you see. Whether or not power and intrigue are as sexually compelling to the succubi of this world as they are to those of others is up to the authors however. It's also certainly possible that Jul may be differently wired than all the rest, and thus something of an exception. Nearly all of this however is speculation at this point. What we've seen of her so far has been true to type, and and we don't have any other succubi to compare her against yet.

And I also agree we can't be sure about what really happened in this instance because we don't know much about Jul yet, but I think that debating is really interesting - seeing how very differently other people read the same scene.

Yep.

P_Tigras wrote: Given her powers, I don't think she's had to deal with being despised all that much during her, what is very likely, centuries of existence. She's far more likely to have dealt with humans from a position of power and control, wrapping countless men and women around her pinky whenever she desired. And given her tendency to treat other people as toys, I'm not inclined to think she cares whether or not anything meets your definition of real as long as she gets what she wants.

Yes she has power over humans, but she must know that it's all smoke and mirrors, even when they're under her thumb, catering to her whims. If she didn't use it, she would be despised and ostracized, just on the basis of what she is.

I'm not convinced of this. She wasn't born human, and to an alien creature human emotion would just as likely seem fickle and illusory as real and enduring. She has to realize she's missing something before she can decide that she wants it for herself. I suspect that this realization from her time as a prisoner in the upcoming Loren 2 will be what motivates her transformation into someone or something better.

As we've seen with both the humans and elves - demons are absolutely hated, creatures to be killed on sight and with a succubus it is probably even worse, because they know that she can manipulate their minds. I mean, Chambara is hunted for what she does and she is a human who only dabbles in the dark arts. To the races of the Loren universe, the demons are evil personified.

Jul is not Chambara. Chambara is still human, and has completely human emotions. Jul isn't human, neither is she elven or dwarven for that matter, so I'd hesitate to assume that she and her fellow demons are simply misunderstood. Mesphit certainly enjoyed murdering cyclopses as a substitute for accidentally murdering people he cared about when his demonic instincts surfaced, and he wasn't even a full demon. He wasn't born with that desire to murder, it came later when he made his pact with Jul. He also had learned to love both his father and his people before becoming a demon. Again there is a lot we don't know yet, but I doubt that Jul starts out as "nice deep down but hiding it" the way Chambara did. Given what has been revealed to us regarding Jul so far, I'm fairly certain she's going to start out with some strongly evil inclinations that may change over time if our protagonist chooses to invest significant amounts of time into salvaging her. I expect that like an adult feral cat who a caring person takes into their home, she's going to do quite a bit of damage and destruction in the interim to everything around her if the protagonist isn't extremely careful.

And if you're right about her age (which I'm not sure you are), Jul has had a long time to get used to the idea that she can't be anything different, because no one would let her. If we assume that demons are indeed not all the same - born evil and that's it ( and I don't think they are), there must have been a time when Jul wondered about her position in the world. We don't know for how long she's been under Fost's boot or how she came to be there, but she is not in charge of her life.

It's certainly possible that Jul is a very young demon, but it's just as likely that she's been around a long time, possibly centuries, or even millenia old. Given that she was one of Fost's top lieutenants, I'm inclined to think that she was too experienced to be very young.

And even if she could run away from Fost, she can't hide her tail and wings and see what it's like to live any other way.

Youre' assuming she can't shape-shift. Traditionally shape-shifting is among a succubus's powers.

So by the time we meet her, I think she has internalized all that crap that's been thrown her way. I think she might feel trapped and alienated, but tries to fight against the idea. She convinces herself that she is a demon, after all, so she must be like all the others.
She uses her power freely, even has fun with it , but she still must know that her triumph is hollow. And it is definitely hollow because she stays in the exact same place. At least until she's freed from Fost (of coirse that's when our team finds her)

You're making a lot of assumptions here. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the gist of your argument seems to be that like vampires these days, demons are just another misunderstood and persecuted minority. They're just people with cool powers and slightly different dietary requirements. Treat them with love and many of them will become loving beings.

P_Tigras wrote: Enchanting someone into loving you from a demon's perspective is much more reliable and easily maintained over the years than trying to convince them to love you and then hoping they never fall out of love with you.

Enchanting someone into loving you would certainly be more reliable and easier to maintain, but it's also so inferior to having a real connection that I'm not sure why it would be even considered, unless it's the only way- which, for Jul, it might very well have been.

Again, I'm not convinced that Jul is even aware that there is a difference as of the ending of the original Loren game, and human emotions are enough of a battlefield that it would be far from obvious to an alien creature that there is a real difference between the two over the long term.

P_Tigras wrote: Real gold obtained through magic is just as real and requires much less effort than obtaining that same real gold without magic. Her views may evolve in Loren 2 however as she appears to become something of a prisoner.

False comparison. Even if you accept equating human companionship (or elven, or dwarven) with a material possession, it still isn't true, putting aside the consent issues.

I the player agree with you, but I doubt that Jul the succubus demon even understands the distinction you're making here.

It would be more like if Jul wanted gold (companionship, sex, relationship), but no one would trade with her because she's a demon, so she magicked gold out of mud, only it was far less shiny and brown (because when she enchants someone, they completely lose themselves and become slaves to her will.) Not what she wanted at all.
And this is not just 'my definition of real', like you said. The idea that a bond that evolves freely and without coercion by magic is somehow of the same value as the one that happens only because a demoness willed it into existence...Well, that's completely alien to me.
And if Jul trully wanted a connection with another being, but didnt know any other way than to use her powers - then that's a truly devastating thought.

I think it very likely that Jul needs to see such a connection in action over an extended period of time before she'll realize it's something solid that she wants for herself enough to try and change her behavior. I strongly suspect that this won't happen until she becomes the protagonist's prisoner in Loren 2 and has the opportunity to observe party interactions for awhile. At least this is how I'd probably approach writing it were the task mine. I grant that it's not the only possibility however, and Aleema may well decide to go with something else. Personally I'm getting a little tired of misunderstood monsters in this genre however. And we've already got a misunderstood black witch, so I'm not thrilled with the idea of adding a misunderstood demon on top of our misunderstood witch.

I want to put my thoughts into the matter, but then it might spoil the game. I will say that Jul is older than she looks and has a back story to tell. Also, demons are inherently dangerous in that they consume life. It's similar to how sex feels to us - we need to do it in order to survive, so it feels good, as to encourage it. Demons illicit a similar pleasure in killing, because that is what their existence is meant for. But just as we can abstain from sex, there can be the control to not kill.

There are only a few demons that find pleasure in sex at all (since they do not all copulate), but the succubi/inncubi are one of them. What they find pleasurable about sex, however, is a bit different from us, since they seem hard-wired to use it as a tool. I'll save the rest of my commentary for exploration in game.

Ok, now it's Chambara's turn...

josipa24 wrote:

P_Tigras wrote:Sorry, but I see Elenor's personality as naturally somewhat submissive even outside of the bedroom. Even when she's standing up for a cause that she feels is important, she's all too often neglecting her own best interest while looking out for someone else's well-being which she treats as more important than her own. I'm not by any means suggesting that this sort of relationship should be forced on an unwilling Elenor however. I think Elenor should have the right to protest, and that if she did, Chambara would let it go. Another possibility would be to give Elenor the chance to offer up the possibility of a threesome with Jul that centers around Chambara's pleasure as a kind of gift, and if she doesn't, then it never happens.

I strongly disagree with this. Obeying orders from your Queen isn't a sign of submissivness, and neither is putting the welfare of others before your own, especially in the face of a demon invasion. It's not weakness to put aside your personal interest, it's strength. To stay because others need you. More on this below, because it ties to my thoughts about Chambara.

Semantics. Surrendering to the will of another whether it's your Queen, King, commanding officer, lover or spouse is still submission, most especially if those "orders" you're "obeying" aren't orders you'd follow if you were given a choice. It doesn't matter if the submission has a sexual component or not. It's still submission. And I strongly reject the perception that submission=weakness. Some people may have that perception, but I certainly don't. It takes a great deal of strength to submit to an order that will mean your death on the battlefield even as it saves the lives of countless others, or to throw your body on top of the President's during an assassination attempt. It would be much easier to desert, or to let the President get killed, then to submit to your likely death simply because that's your duty or because you love your country.

P_Tigras wrote:Not the same thing. Chambara had no control over Elenor's relationship with Loren, worse, Elenor was legally Loren's slave, when Chambara wanted Elenor for herself. So of course Chambara was going to be jealous of Loren's claim on Elenor -and- Elenor's acceptance of that claim. The fact that Loren didn't take advantage of it was secondary to the fact that if Loren had snapped her fingers and demanded it, she could bed Elenor at any time. As I said previously, control is very important to Chambara.

Uh. Why should Chambara have any control over Elenor's relationship with others? She shouldn't have control over Elenor's relationship with Chambara herself! This is not what a D/s relationship is about. And I didn't read it like that in the game at all.

Chambara's words and actions made it pretty clear that she wished she were Elenor's owner instead of Loren, especially once she realized that Elenor accepted that ownership. As for why Chambara would have control over her relationship with Elenor, that's pretty easy, because Elenor -can- give her that control. That's what submission is about. Surrendering control.

But I do agree that Chambara would be jealous of Elenor's acceptance of being Loren's slave (especially after Elenor refuses to switch mistresses and gets insulted by Chambara seeing her as a simple slave). And I definitely agree that Chambara has a very strong need to control.
It's no surprise, if you look at her childhood - an orphan left at the magic academy where she almost got killed by the people who were supposed to protect her. And for what - for doing something they didn't understand or were afraid of. In her mind, I think she feels she has to control everything so that she won't be left to the mercy of others (and their lesser minds) ever again.

We are in agreement here.

Also, I can see a few paralels between her and Jul here - alienation and a sense of otherness, coupled with an underlying anger.

In a lot of fantasy worlds demons are alien creatures from a very different world or dimension that are quick to anger. That is not how I see Chambara at all, even if Chambara does feel alienated from other humans due to her magic, and is highly skittish because she's constantly being threatened by hunters seeking to end her life.

So she moves away as far from everyone as she can (her own little kingdom in the swamp), she has a few flings all on her terms and tells herself she doesn't need anything more.

Agreed.

And when she does meet Elenor, she tries to make her her own in the only way she knows how.

I somewhat disagree here. My take on Chambara is that she fears being vulnerable or even expressing vulnerability. It's not that it's the only way she knows how to have a relationship so much as the only way she feels safe inside of a relationship. Let's face it, a new relationship involves strong emotions and a loss of control over one's feelings. Chambara is going to feel extremely vulnerable and she no doubt finds this both highly threatening and very scary. In Saren's case this causes Chambara to continually run away in what comes across to me as an attempt to avoid being overwhelmed by how vulnerable her strong feelings are making her. In Elenor's case, Chambara demands her complete submission which allows Chambara to feel safer and more secure, enabling her to feel comfortable enough to stick around. Simply playing at D/s the way she does with Saren doesn't appear to be enough, she needs the entire relationship to be D/s with her as the D to feel safe in it.

But I don't think she ever succeeds. Or at least, not in the way she planned to.

On the contrary, I think Chambara succeeds exactly the way she planned. Why do you think she doesn't?

And it turns out better in the end, because Chambara isn't attracted to Elenor's submissiveness, or at least not completely, she is attracted to her strength.

I don't consider submissiveness and strength to be mutually exclusive, and I am inclined to believe that Chambara was attracted to both Elenor's strength and her submissiveness. Winning the submission of someone who is weak isn't as enticing as winning the submission of someone who is strong.

She even says something along the lines of (can't remember the exact quote): "I can't stop myself from being drawn to someone like you."
Because she's never met someone like Elenor, who effortlessly does the right thing all the time and who doesn't see her only as a dark witch but as a person.

From what I recall, if Elenor asks Chambara what she means by this she'll give Elenor's body a long appraising look. It's not every day that Chambara encounters a hottie slave who so clearly cares about a despised misfit living in the swamp like her. Chambara goes from wanting to help free Elenor to desiring to take possession of Elenor for herself after what seems like a single night of lustful dreams.

Someone she can rely on to watch her back, in battle and out of it. Also you'll notice that when she finds out Elenor has dark magic, superior to her own even, Chambara's first instinct is to help her learn, not enter a power struggle - the evidence that she's grown.

Chambara's dominance was expressed only in the context of her desire to pursue a romantic relationship. Chambara wasn't pursuing a romantic relationship in that moment, she was indulging what to her was a very rare opportunity to talk about her favorite subject with another human being. Chambara's dominance may or may not exist outside of a sexual context. If it does exist outside of a sexual context, then she's learned from hard experience that the world isn't going to allow a black witch any temporal power so it's pointless for her to pursue power aside from her magic, which is fairly potent in and of itself. Chambara is most definitely a control-freak who fears being vulnerable however. My take on her is that she needs to be in complete control of herself, and as an extension because romantic relationships result in a loss of personal control, also in control of her romantic partner. In addition, she finds Elenor's willingness to surrender to her and be vulnerable a tremendous turn-on.

And after when they consumate their relationship, Chambara may be the dom, but that doesn't mean she has the absolute control, because she learned that she has to let go of some of her own. She let Elenor inside, shared more of herself than with anyone, and later she even relinquishes her fortress when they start living together.

Due to a single sentence in the epilogue, there is reason to believe that Chambara will relax her guard over the years and that eventually the relationship will become more equal as Chambara feels increasingly secure with it. Deep down Chambara clearly loves Elenor and being in charge all of the time is a lot of work. So I see her valuing Elenor's input and granting Elenor more and more free agency as the years go by and her fears slowly fade. Eventually she may even allow Elenor to be on top on occasion. I don't believe that will happen quickly however. It's going to take years of dedicated submission from Elenor to bring that about.

P_Tigras wrote:There are D/s relationships which are completely monogamous as appears to be your personal preference, there are D/s relationships where the dominant partner may take lovers while the submissive partner must remain exclusive, there are D/s relationships where the dominant partner may not only take lovers, but may decide to include their submissive partner in the bedroom play with their lover, who may or may not also be submissive, and there are D/s relationships in which a third partner is taken on as part of a triad, ie. where everyone has a commitment to everyone else. These are not the only possible arrangements, but they seem to be some of the more common ones in a D/s context.

Yes, I'm aware.
And while monogamy is indeed my preference, I don't think I'm blind to the other options. Are they a possibility? Yes, but I haven't seen any indication of them in this game.

I actually agree with your last sentence here. I never said that a menage-a-trois would necessarily happen, only that I can easily envision circumstances in which it could, particularly where Jul is concerned. Heck, having a third person around may even help ensure she doesn't accidentally lose control and kill the second person. That said, I recall Jack saying that there were no plans for any threesomes. So unless Aleema decided she wanted to run with the possibility in a special circumstance or two, it isn't likely to happen.

P_Tigras wrote:Given what we know so far of Chambara, she has to be the most dominant partner of the arrangement to feel comfortable with it. Furthermore she is not likely to tolerate any competition for Elenor. That doesn't mean Chambara wouldn't enjoy having the hands and lips of both Elenor and Jul on her at the same time. So I see it as very possible as long as Chambara feels in complete control of the menage-a-trois, which very likely means that she's going to be the center of the V unless -she- is in the mood to change things up.

Maybe Chambara is indeed a pure dom (it seems the most likely as it stands now, although I can see her switch here and there if she becomes more comfortable with Elenor), but we have seen anything so far about her being into threesomes or moresomes. I suppose you could headcanon it that way, if you wanted, though. I certainly have a pretty detailed headcanon of my own, as you can see above.

It's not that I see Chambara as a pure Dom so much that I see her as unwilling to cede the least bit of control over herself or Elenor. If the additional partner in the arrangement is willing to defer to Chambara's boundaries and the bedroom script closely follows Chambara's personal fantasies, then I believe that Chambara would probably be willing to indulge. If on the other hand the additional partner attempted to take liberties with either Elenor or herself that Chambara wasn't willing to grant then there would definitely be a problem. By accepting that Chambara calls the shots her securities can be defused and all that messiness can be circumvented. It's not that much different than Chambara's handling of her relationship with Elenor, just expanded to include a third for a night, or perhaps longer. None of this is headcanon for me, I'm just considering the various possibilities given the personalities of the various characters involved. Of course given that Jul may well be a homicidal life-sucking demon, Chambara may have too many reasons not to let Jul anywhere near Elenor unless perhaps Jul is heavily manacled... (*looks again at the illustration of a manacled Jul by the camp fire*) Hmmm...

Aleema wrote:I want to put my thoughts into the matter, but then it might spoil the game. I will say that Jul is older than she looks and has a back story to tell. Also, demons are inherently dangerous in that they consume life. It's similar to how sex feels to us - we need to do it in order to survive, so it feels good, as to encourage it. Demons illicit a similar pleasure in killing, because that is what their existence is meant for. But just as we can abstain from sex, there can be the control to not kill.

There are only a few demons that find pleasure in sex at all (since they do not all copulate), but the succubi/inncubi are one of them. What they find pleasurable about sex, however, is a bit different from us, since they seem hard-wired to use it as a tool. I'll save the rest of my commentary for exploration in game.

This confirms many of my own thoughts while deftly and skillfully avoiding discussion of Jul directly. Hmmm...so demons in Loren's world gain great pleasure from "consuming life", not just in committing murder. Does this mean that they physically eat the flesh of what they kill? Or do they consume life in some other fashion? For example, in many settings succubi literally suck the life energy right out of their victims via sexual acts. In some legends this involves simply taking a man's seed and leaving him totally drained and exhausted, and then turning around and changing into an incubus who then impregnates a woman with the now demon-corrupted seed. In other settings their life draining can be triggered even by dry kisses, and/or can be potentially fatal in and of itself, as much like a vampire, they can drain too much in a single go. Succubi and incubi are also sometimes depicted as either separate species or separate genders of the same species, with succubi capable of being impregnated by humans and incubi of impregnating them, which is a bit different than incubi simply being shape-shifted succubi who've already consumed mortal sperm and are now ready to deposit it. Often, but not always, incubi are associated with rape instead of seduction. So how does all this work in Loren's world?

I'm gonna try tying this whole thing in the same post, because we both got some new info (Word of God ) and because judging by your last posts we seem to be mostly in agreement over Chambara.

P_Tigras wrote:

This is the demonic version of the old nature vs nurture question. Are demons born evil? Or are they just raised to be evil? If it's the latter then there is certainly room for redemption. And even if they are generally born evil, there may be room for a handful of exceptions. That said, if all demons from the day of birth have to face murderous urges that are at least as powerful as the ones Mesphit faced, that would suggest that any exceptions for full blooded demons would be very, very rare.

Ah, but until Aleema's post, I didn't think all demons had the need to kill. I figured it was reserved for the baser demons (the more beastly kind), not for all of them. More on this a little bit down.

P_Tigras wrote: I'm not convinced of this. She wasn't born human, and to an alien creature human emotion would just as likely seem fickle and illusory as real and enduring.

Jul is not Chambara. Chambara is still human, and has completely human emotions.

Again, a difference in perception here. I don't see fully sentient beings as something other to humans, even if they're demons. They might have different morals, or be saddled with a need to kill, or have a very dfferent perception of the world, but they'd still have emotions like any other being.

P_Tigras wrote:Again there is a lot we don't know yet, but I doubt that Jul starts out as "nice deep down but hiding it" the way Chambara did. Given what has been revealed to us regarding Jul so far, I'm fairly certain she's going to start out with some strongly evil inclinations that may change over time if our protagonist chooses to invest significant amounts of time into salvaging her. I expect that like an adult feral cat who a caring person takes into their home, she's going to do quite a bit of damage and destruction in the interim to everything around her if the protagonist isn't extremely careful.

I never meant to make it seem like I thought Jul was the same as Chambara (even though I still think we can draw a few parallels) and I don't think she's 'nice deep down but hiding it'. But when I reread my posts now I can see why you got this impression.
My thoughts were more about her romace path and the way I think she could connect with someone 'one-on-one', not her world view. I honestly don't think she cares much at all about others' wellbeing, I see her more a a chaotic neutral, and I don't think that will ever change, even if she ends up in a relationship with the protagonist.

P_Tigras wrote: You're making a lot of assumptions here.

Oh yeah, I'm pulling most of this out of thin air I'm a writer, i get carried away. I know it may very well not be true, and it probably isn't, but it's interesting to talk about, at least to me.

P_Tigras wrote: Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the gist of your argument seems to be that like vampires these days, demons are just another misunderstood and persecuted minority. They're just people with cool powers and slightly different dietary requirements. Treat them with love and many of them will become loving beings.

Not quite. I thought the baser demons(the earth and water demons and the creepy purple thing that has devour ability) had an urge to feed off of the other races (like an animal instict), and these two parties were locked in a war for so long that there was no going back. What colored them evil was our perception of them, because we were being attacked. And to their eyes we're just prey with really large teeth.
I thought the demons higher up the evolution chain (like Jul), were the same as humans in a way - some evil, some douches, some not - but they're not born wrong. They're still sentient, have a choice of action, so if they choose to kill then they're accountable.
I was just thinking about what it'd be like to be born into that sort of company and what effect it might have.

P_Tigras wrote:I think it very likely that Jul needs to see such a connection in action over an extended period of time before she'll realize it's something solid that she wants for herself enough to try and change her behavior. I strongly suspect that this won't happen until she becomes the protagonist's prisoner in Loren 2 and has the opportunity to observe party interactions for awhile. At least this is how I'd probably approach writing it were the task mine. I grant that it's not the only possibility however, and Aleema may well decide to go with something else.

*Nods head* I thougth she might have felt a - maybe not a need before for this sort of thing - but an inkling for it. I don't think it would be a conscious thought however, more like something buried and forgotten, but your way seems likely, too. It's Aleema's call.

Nope, I cna't do it in one post

I'll share my thoughts on Chambara, as I experienced her, but I'm not going to get into a long discussion here, no time for that.

What I got from Chambara was that she is a power hungry, manipulative control freak. Even when she is bested, she still has to make a remark to make it seem like that was actually the outcome she was aiming for. In the few instances where her control slips, she is embarrassed, and if she doesn't immediately regain control, angry.

Chambara's interest in the MC starts off as controlling for the sake of being in control. When Chambara discovers the power that the MC has, she needs to control that power, by further controlling, subjugating even, the MC. She uses the means she has, which are mainly sexual. She probably has a history of using that tactic successfully, but that's pure speculation. If, along the way, she comes to actually care, that is mostly accidental (but interesting, to see what moral dilemmas that can lead to). MC is being strung along, depending on whether you pursue the romance, successfully or not.

As such, the whole dom/sub thing is much more literal here than in a regular relationship, because Chambara has an agenda. This is not (just) for kicks and kinks. It's not a game, it's Chambara gaining control over MC's power through a sex ploy. It's actually very creepy, but then Chambara is just intelligent enough to entice us anyway, because she is good at being genuinely likeable in a smart-alecky way. And the kinks aren't half bad, if you're into that sort of thing.

It will be interesting to see how Chambara treats MC in the sequel if you did not pursue the romance - will she be using other means to gain control, now that sex hasn't worked? After all, her only interest in working with the party seems to be MC.

Anyway, those are my observations and thoughts on the matter, agree or not, that's how I read it. I guess only a couple of people know the real truth. Like I said, I'm very interested to see what happens regarding Chambara, in the sequel.

P_Tigras wrote:
... most especially if those "orders" you're "obeying" aren't orders you'd follow if you were given a choice.

But it would be Elenor's choice. Even in the beginning, when Loren thinks of her as only a slave, she wants to go find Karen. And later she has actual sway over Loren's decisions.

P_Tigras wrote: And I strongly reject the perception that submission=weakness.

Indeed. I must have misunderstood your post.

P_Tigras wrote: It doesn't matter if the submission has a sexual component or not. It's still submission.

My problem with this (and labeling Elenor as submmissive outside the bed), is that everyone would be considered submissive then. Everyone does something that they wouldn't choose sooner or later. Even Chambara leaves her hut and goes with you, when she'd much rather tell you to piss off, and she's definitely not submissive.

P_Tigras wrote:
Chambara's words and actions made it pretty clear that she wished she were Elenor's owner instead of Loren, especially once she realized that Elenor accepted that ownership. As for why Chambara would have control over her relationship with Elenor, that's pretty easy, because Elenor -can- give her that control. That's what submission is about. Surrendering control.

Except that it isn't, not completely. As a sub, you'd surrender control to your dom, yes, but it would be under strict rules, and both of you would be bound by them. Even in the most rigid mistress/slave relationship, the slave still has the power to stop and the mistress the obligation to listen (or submit, as you'd probably put it), because the relationship would turn to abusive if not.
And if your dom cotrols your other relationships, too, the dynamic has turned to unhealthy. That's why I had a problem with the above and Chambara possibly doing the same. But like I said, I didn't even see a hint of it in game.

P_Tigras wrote: In a lot of fantasy worlds demons are alien creatures from a very different world or dimension that are quick to anger. That is not how I see Chambara at all, even if Chambara does feel alienated from other humans due to her magic, and is highly skittish because she's constantly being threatened by hunters seeking to end her life.

Ah, this comes back to our views about the demons' nature. I think we can agree to disagree here . Or agree that we don't know absolutely anything yet would be more like it

P_Tigras wrote:I somewhat disagree here. My take on Chambara is that she fears being vulnerable or even expressing vulnerability. It's not that it's the only way she knows how to have a relationship so much as the only way she feels safe inside of a relationship. Let's face it, a new relationship involves strong emotions and a loss of control over one's feelings. Chambara is going to feel extremely vulnerable and she no doubt finds this both highly threatening and very scary.

I actually agree with this, not sure where the discord is.

P_Tigras wrote:On the contrary, I think Chambara succeeds exactly the way she planned. Why do you think she doesn't?

Because my Elenor doesn't submit completely, remember ? To me, outside the bedroom, their relationship is very much equal. So Chambara didn't get what she wanted in the beginning (a perfect slave), but she definitely prefers what she got. Again, this is in my game, not trying to push my impressions on anyone.

P_Tigras wrote:I don't consider submissiveness and strength to be mutually exclusive, and I am inclined to believe that Chambara was attracted to both Elenor's strength and her submissiveness. Winning the submission of someone who is weak isn't as enticing as winning the submission of someone who is strong.

Again, I misunderstood your post about weakness and submission, hence my poor wording. And I definitely think it was more of a turn-on for Chambara that Elenor was strong

P_Tigras wrote: Chambara's dominance may or may not exist outside of a sexual context. If it does exist outside of a sexual context, then she's learned from hard experience that the world isn't going to allow a black witch any temporal power so it's pointless for her to pursue power aside from her magic, which is fairly potent in and of itself. Chambara is most definitely a control-freak who fears being vulnerable however. My take on her is that she needs to be in complete control of herself, and as an extension because romantic relationships result in a loss of personal control, also in control of her romantic partner. In addition, she finds Elenor's willingness to surrender to her and be vulnerable a tremendous turn-on.

Yes to all of this. And this below:

P_Tigras wrote: Due to a single sentence in the epilogue, there is reason to believe that Chambara will relax her guard over the years and that eventually the relationship will become more equal as Chambara feels increasingly secure with it. Deep down Chambara clearly loves Elenor and being in charge all of the time is a lot of work. So I see her valuing Elenor's input and granting Elenor more and more free agency as the years go by and her fears slowly fade. Eventually she may even allow Elenor to be on top on occasion. I don't believe that will happen quickly however. It's going to take years of dedicated submission from Elenor to bring that about.

And one other thing...I wanted to comment about Jul and her demonyness, but I don't want to make a third post in a row about it so I'll do it here. I admit, I haven't had much touch with succubus lore (or demons in general), so all that stuff about sucking the lifeforce out of someone through a kiss or sexual contact is really interesting. It's probably why we have so different views on the demons.
Also, it seems like it might tie in to Loren 2, judging by Aleema's post. I'm really curious to see how this will turn out.

Oh dear me that took ages to read all that

Poor Saren he had the same relationship with Chambara too after all

Few questions/comments have come to mind:
1. I know it makes more writing but can one of the "bi" characters have different romances stories this time? Or are the carry over stories different depending on who you play as i.e Playing as Saren the ending with Chambara was different to the ending with Elenor.