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I think Anima is talking more in general about the system to use for Loren 2 without specific SOTW references, though:

yayswords wrote: If all my (druid) spells cost 5 SP more but my Magic Bolt restored 15 SP that would feel totally different. Mana replenishment becomes an active choice, not just "acquire regen from gear and/or Riley/Jariel, then take the fastest cheapest turn possible to let it tick". If Magic Bolt restores 15 SP it feels like more than a basic attack.

I could do that change easily. But it wouldn't break all the game balance?
I think the main problem is also having fixed spells. I checked what some big RPG do: on Everquest for example, every level up you get a powered up skill. It's basically the same as previous one, but more powerful to inflict more damage to enemies, but also more expensive. So for example:
Ice spike 1 = 25 SP cost = deals 50-60 dmg
Ice spike 2 = 30 SP cost = deals 60-70 dmg
Ice spike 3 = 35 SP cost = deals 70-80 dmg
...and so on. So even if the SP pool increases, as the skill/spell cost increases too, it solves the problem a bit. But the way SOTW was designed I really can't have tons of variants of the same skill, so that's a problem

I'm just giving an example of how it could look. Not requesting any SotW changes here. It's one concept: Mages replenish their mana by using Magic Bolt. You can even have sub-variants like, for one mage the Magic Bolt gives a lot of mana but has a cooldown, for another it gives more and more mana if you keep using it without throwing in spells inbetween (think of it as a channeled spell), and yet another has the reverse mechanic.

P.S. spell ranks suck, they're nothing but a way to balance a growing mana pool that grows only because players expect larger stat numbers when they level up. Oh and sometimes a gold sink.

But that mechanic doesn't realize your goal. Wanting to win with abilities not basic attacks. You're not only requiring basic attacks now, you'll end all the fights with magic misseling the last enemy to death to get back SP. If you want to achieve your stated goal your suggestion is actually counter productive.

The purpose of any (traditional) mana system is to limit the number of abilities you can use. In a system where mana is a persistent resource the goal is actually to make individual battles more boring to make the metagame more interesting. In an instanced mana system the goal is to force the player to solve the encounter with the limited number of abilities it allows. The logical conclusion to such a system would be that there are no attacks that have no mana cost, so that running out of mana is a defeat.

That's why I'm asking what the problem is that we are trying to solve, what is the goal we're trying to achieve with the mana subsystem. And why I suggested simply removing it if we don't come up with a goal.
Take for example a completely different interpretation of the mana mechanic. Lets call it Stamina and Stamina Points (SP). Every character has a SP pool and every action has an SP cost. When you use an action you can pay the SP cost to cut the actions delay in half. That's all. Don't you think that this system would be much better at actually meeting your goal?

Anima_ wrote:Take for example a completely different interpretation of the mana mechanic. Lets call it Stamina and Stamina Points (SP). Every character has a SP pool and every action has an SP cost. When you use an action you can pay the SP cost to cut the actions delay in half. That's all. Don't you think that this system would be much better at actually meeting your goal?

I don't understand this. Every action has a SP cost and if you pay that cost (like you somehow had the option not to) you cut the delay in half? Do you mean I could use the ability for free if I wanted to, but pay the SP if I wanted half delay? Or that I can pay double for half delay? I'm not sure I see much merit either way

As for my own idea, I'm having a hard time translating a system I like, to something that works for these games. In WoW, as a caster, you are generally not limited by mana but by procs* and cooldowns. Your standard "single target rotation" will keep your mana up indefinitely. However, some actions, such as AoE spells and healing (as a caster), will drain your mana. If you try to do that stuff, the actual rate of regen of your standard rotation begins to matter, as well as your ability to weave those extra spells with your bread and butter ones, etc. Healers are more about prioritizing throughput vs. efficiency and making their mana pool + regen last. Anyway I'm putting this on hold for now (but will clarify if asked) with the message that I think the SotW resource system largely sucks either way. I'm not automatically opposed to an entirely cooldown-based system though I think I'll feel uncomfortable without some kind of mana.

you'll end all the fights with magic misseling the last enemy to death to get back SP.

I think this is worth talking about though. Firstly can we acknowledge that victory delaying behavior only exists because we don't heal to full between battles? Good. Now let's take any other game where you don't heal to full between battles. Those are quite many! Well, what do you do there if you want to recover before your next fight? Sometimes you get increased regeneration just for not being "in combat", some have items you can use only outside combat which significantly boost regen, some allow you to rest outside of combat. The common denominator is that being outside of combat helps you regen somehow. But that's boring! We want to launch ourselves at the next battle ASAP. Still, that battle will probably go better if we recover fully. It's up to the player's judgment.

Since we have decided all passive regen, regen abilities etc etc will mysteriously cease working the moment nobody within close proximity wants to kick our asses, there's no way for us to regen between battles... unless we want to pay at the tavern (which isn't always available anyway). So instead we - or at least I - regen inside the battle. And then my pace slows down like the guy who rests between fights. Delayed victories are pretty much SotW's version of regen - provided you have some regen. The conclusion of this elaboration is, that as long as we have any type of replenishable resource, this behavior will continue to exist. And one good way of punishing such behavior would be to set a time limit (measured in ticks on the combat timer) before the quest is failed because we were too slow. And when that's not applicable... really, a lot of games let you do things more safely if you spend more time, so it's not philosophically wrong.

Still though, even if not used to counter delayed victories, I hope to see the possibility of timed quests

* Proc means Programmed Random Occurrence, the most common and basic of which is a critical hit.

yayswords wrote:I don't understand this. Every action has a SP cost and if you pay that cost (like you somehow had the option not to) you cut the delay in half? Do you mean I could use the ability for free if I wanted to, but pay the SP if I wanted half delay? Or that I can pay double for half delay? I'm not sure I see much merit either way

The system is just what I told you. You have a SP pool, when you use an ability you can pay the SP cost to cut the delay by half. That's it. There are no other resource mechanics.
But what I'm actually trying to do is not talking about rules and mechanics. Instead the first step is to state the goals we want to achieve with these rules. That is a necessary step for evaluating and selecting the mechanic we want to use.

The goal for SotWs resource system was to change the mood from Loren. In Loren you're the big bad heroes who go around fixing the world. In SotW you're a bunch of cast out misfits trying to survive in a hostile world.
That's why you don't regenerate in SotW after a battle, but you do in Loren. In SotW you're supposed to feel resource deprived, battered down and anxious about the next battle. Though I actually think that the current system doesn't work very well for that.

So what kind of mood are we trying to create in the Sequel to Loren? What do we want the player to concentrate on during an encounter, just about the here and now or about what will come afterwards the rest of the journey? Do we want abilities to be more like special attacks and finishers or like tools of the trade? Is the game forbidden to enter an unwinnable state or are we allowed to severely punish lack of preparation? Should encounters be limited by time or resources or should you be able to win by toughing them out, no matter how long it takes? These kind of questions are what's important to decide on the resource mechanic.

Firstly:

Anima_ wrote:That's why you don't regenerate in SotW after a battle, but you do in Loren.

Is this an official unified dev team statement? Every time I've seen this subject brought up, Jack has explained it with limiting the power of grinding, so that nobody takes on a boss at a way higher level than intended and complains the game is too easy. Like level 30 parties vs. Fost. And I have pointed out that the limited spawns already accomplish this, yes, but it's still the motivation I've seen every time. First time I see this.

So what kind of mood are we trying to create in the Sequel to Loren?

I don't have access to the story so I can't really answer that. Nor have I ever really considered this a part of combat design. I think most of your questions should be answered by the difficulty slider

As for your hypothetical system: No amygdala hijack at least. It still begs the question about the management of these stamina points though. Can they be replenished? Can we increase the max amount? etc. Or are you just making a point rather than trying to present an entire system?

yayswords wrote:

Anima_ wrote:That's why you don't regenerate in SotW after a battle, but you do in Loren.

Is this an official unified dev team statement? Every time I've seen this subject brought up, Jack has explained it with limiting the power of grinding, so that nobody takes on a boss at a way higher level than intended and complains the game is too easy. Like level 30 parties vs. Fost. And I have pointed out that the limited spawns already accomplish this, yes, but it's still the motivation I've seen every time. First time I see this.

Well one aspect is surely limiting the grinding but yes also removing that "Easy" feeling that Loren left in many experienced RPG players. That's why in general SOTW is harder than Loren, even in Easy/Normal mode

yayswords wrote:Is this an official unified dev team statement? Every time I've seen this subject brought up, Jack has explained it with limiting the power of grinding, so that nobody takes on a boss at a way higher level than intended and complains the game is too easy. Like level 30 parties vs. Fost. And I have pointed out that the limited spawns already accomplish this, yes, but it's still the motivation I've seen every time. First time I see this.

I'm not a dev for SotW, just a programmer. Good luck getting a straight answer about theme from jack though, that's like pulling teeth.

I don't have access to the story so I can't really answer that. Nor have I ever really considered this a part of combat design. I think most of your questions should be answered by the difficulty slider

It's the core of all game design actually. All elements in the game should support each other. Maybe it's easier to see it as the question which system suits our game. And to answer that we look at questions like I outlined earlier.
That's one hell of a difficulty slider you're imagining there.

As for your hypothetical system: No amygdala hijack at least. It still begs the question about the management of these stamina points though. Can they be replenished? Can we increase the max amount? etc. Or are you just making a point rather than trying to present an entire system?

Just making a point. The system would achieve your goal no matter the management since it does not prevent you from using abilities in any way. You'd need other goals to see how the management of the pool should be handled.

Anima_ wrote: I'm not a dev for SotW, just a programmer. Good luck getting a straight answer about theme from jack though, that's like pulling teeth.

What I just replied!!! besides, I hate the dentist
I'll quote the writer on SOTW: the main theme is DECEIT. Enough said, will be clear later in the game. But I might add also survival: first in the cold lands of Ninim, then as slaves in the arena, then - beep spoilers! -. Sorry can't say more than that

If that philosophy is so important then that is certainly the most pressing discussion to have. As for the difficulty slider:

What do we want the player to concentrate on during an encounter, just about the here and now or about what will come afterwards the rest of the journey? The higher the difficulty, the more planning should be necessary.
Do we want abilities to be more like special attacks and finishers or like tools of the trade? This is a design philosophy question. Also I choose option b
Is the game forbidden to enter an unwinnable state or are we allowed to severely punish lack of preparation? What I said on 1)
Should encounters be limited by time or resources or should you be able to win by toughing them out, no matter how long it takes? I certainly hope you will use timers since the new system should allow for it. As for how harsh they should be... again, should depend on difficulty, with a rather symbolic timer for easy (if any at all) and a real "burst engineer's challenge" for nightmare.