Let's talk combat

[renke_]

P.S. I can't bring myself to make a ranger/druid party. Hunters have gone from ticklers to mana batteries to the coolest class in Loren and SotW combined. Druids are, even if sufficiently powerful, extremely bland right now. I might be spending my day sporadically thinking of a remake of the druid skill tree.

Ah, please not. It may be absolutely pleasing for some players to have complex classes (as far as I understood the Hunter is mostly so great because one can combine skills and positions in interesting ways) but [as I said somewhere before] some players prefer straight (or boring, depends on PoV) characters. I would feel uncomfortable if all player classes require complicated skill interactions.

[yayswords]

I'm not gonna give that a serious go unless Jack actually says he would spend the time implementing the ideas if he liked them. But anyway look at the current hunter. You don't have to play it in a complicated way to win, not even on nightmare. Do you think it is too complex the way it is now, even if you don't try for Hide in Shadows combos etc? Do you think it lacks simple actions? I am not trying to sound mean, these are honest questions. I agree each class should be able to be played quite blithely, at least for the lower difficulties. But I do not think that the existence of depth is the same as obligation to use said depth.

Also look at the current second and third tier of druid spells. They are horrendously similar. My first effort would be to combine the four into one, maybe having it cause the kind of damage the target is the least resistant to if that's programmable. Then there's suddenly six slots open. I'd like something for mana management, maybe a spell that causes you to gain mana if an enemy dies. Utility spells. Nukes that do well by themselves but also combine well with other classes' abilities. More than just the -20% defense of shattering an enemy.

Some ideas I had just now.
Barkskin: Toughens an ally's skin, increasing defense by X (something small) and making them much harder to stagger.
Constricting Vines: Slows an enemy for 10 turns, but attacks against them reduce the duration by 2.

[jack1974]

Not saying that your ideas aren't good, they are, but as it is made now all the spells have a logic (divided by element). So either I remove them all as you said, and then I have to define 6 new skills and test them, and is not a small task or I don't touch it. If I could add maybe 2-3 spells only, I could do it, but SIX is a bit too much at this point
I think we can talk about this again once I finish act 2, when all the characters are in party and you have an idea of the other skills. I suspect there are other characters that could benefit more from a skill redesign

[yayswords]

Yes I know, it's a tall order, that's why I'm not expecting a change.

On the topic of dividing by element etc. Yeah, sure, there is a small choice in the nukes. But for most part your first nuke is gonna determined by resistance and the second is gonna kill the target (if the first didn't already) if it's not a boss. You could also have another version of Purification that costs less but only affects one row, and there could certainly be situations where you would choose between the two. But what we have to ask ourselves is if the variety is large enough to warrant using up another skill slot. And that's where I think the druid nukes fall.

If I knew earlier that Bramble Coat was possible, I would have been suggesting stuff like this long before the first beta build. That spell has retributive damage, and it loses duration when you are attacked. Two mechanics I never saw in Loren, two mechanics I just assumed were impossible due to engine limitations. So anyway, throwing another idea out there (based on most WoW crowd control), not for any particular class so not giving it a name: Paralyzes the (non-boss) target for 5 turns, but the effect ends if the target takes any damage at all.

[renke_]

Do you think it is too complex the way it is now, even if you don't try for Hide in Shadows combos etc? Do you think it lacks simple actions? I am not trying to sound mean, these are honest questions.

It's mostly the feeling of "I miss something if I don't use all the characters depth, I read it all the time in the forum". And then I stop playing because I'm too lazy :)

[jack1974]

If I knew earlier that Bramble Coat was possible, I would have been suggesting stuff like this long before the first beta build. That spell has retributive damage, and it loses duration when you are attacked. Two mechanics I never saw in Loren, two mechanics I just assumed were impossible due to engine limitations. So anyway, throwing another idea out there (based on most WoW crowd control), not for any particular class so not giving it a name: Paralyzes the (non-boss) target for 5 turns, but the effect ends if the target takes any damage at all.

Well, it's a hack if Anima saw what I did probably wouldn't talk me for a week.

I'm joking, but yeah I completely hacked the original engine to implement all sort of crazy stuff like hide in shadows and bramblecoat. So in practice when I started the game I didn't expect myself I would have been able to do such things!

[Troyen]

Do you think it is too complex the way it is now, even if you don't try for Hide in Shadows combos etc? Do you think it lacks simple actions?

Honestly, I did more damage without the combo. Not all at once, but more damage in the same amount of time as Hide in Shadows + X.

I'm also addicted to Agility now.

[yayswords]

Okay, renke. First point of order, fix you, second, fix druids

Aw Jack, I've been so unfair to you. Here I was thinking this stuff was possible all along and you weren't creative enough to come up with it, but instead you have been very creative and gotten around programming limitations!

Troyen, for Double Attack I could see that. For Critical Hit, no. HiS costs less SP/delay than another CH and it doubles the damage. However, I don't think it would be good design if it was always best (from a damage PoV) to always combine your moves with HiS. That would be dull.

Instead (beware, hunter design reverence incoming) consider this. Apart from my lovehateskill, Invigorating Prayer, the hunter has exactly three abilities (but I'll ignore Take Aim) that aren't HiS or break HiS. HiS itself is also a HUGE defensive buff, not just something that enhances other skills. So yeah, you cast HiS, and become very tanky. Next you can bandage for a double heal if you need it - admittedly a 50% heal (on any target too) is available to the other twin classes too, but Vaelis and I'm sure many other classes would drool over a selfheal. Then you can put up PB, still under that tanky safety. Now you have one turn left of HiS, and you can now make a big attack.

Also, burst can catch the enemy team unaware. Many "small" (yeah I know the numbers are big without HiS too ) attacks give healers time to counter the damage, the target can go defensive etc. In theory anyway. But with big synchronized burst damage the target just drops. And then they rez because it's too easily done

[renke_]

I'm also addicted to Agility now.

I'm with you - all my team builds were [2-3 class-specific attributes] plus speed and the difference is notable; at least with normal I'm often faster than my foes.

[renke_]

Okay, renke. First point of order, fix you

lol! Good luck ;)