Let's talk about traits

[jack1974]

I don't like fixed amount traits or fixed amount anything else. Fixed amounts don't scale. Then again I suppose attributes don't either.

Having them non scale is GOOD in this case, otherwise some could be overpowered (the HP boost thing). No scaling solves the situation quickly (exactly what I needed).
I am really not sure about doing different traits for each class. That would mean instead of 9 as they're now, I should make 9 x 4 = 36... I have no time to do so many icons, they seem small but take a few days each, and artist has still to do some base skills ones so I don't think they would even be ready for the final game release!!

Currently I'm thinking:
1- fixed amounts
2- using fabula second table, since makes sense for example that a character spending a lot on Skill to increase defense would get also a big defense bonus, or spending on strength would get a big attack bonus and so on

This is possible to do without breaking everything, which is something I'm mostly afraid of

[yayswords]

9x4? There are 3 classes only. And I'm not asking for 9 unique traits for each. Mostly they share the same traits, just that they're not equally accessible; easy to get traits that fix your weaknesses, hard to get traits that enhance your strengths. You would need maybe 3 more icons, and don't pretend you didn't steal most of these from Loren anyway

Also with no scaling it's like, Toughness 50 con/20 str gives +50 HP: Congrats on reaching 50 con! Let's make that 60 con. Cya. It feels very dry.

[jack1974]

Ah yes lol, somehow I was thinking about Loren 2 where there are 4
Since the classes are 3 and the traits 9, could be 3 traits specific for each class. I think actually they should work like that already a bit.

Also with no scaling it's like, Toughness 50 con/20 str gives +50 HP: Congrats on reaching 50 con! Let's make that 60 con. Cya. It feels very dry.

I can use fixed values only for attack/defense, in which is harder to reach a +25 attack/defense. I think not even level 30 weapons have such bonuses

[Troyen]

9x4? There are 3 classes only. And I'm not asking for 9 unique traits for each. Mostly they share the same traits, just that they're not equally accessible; easy to get traits that fix your weaknesses, hard to get traits that enhance your strengths. You would need maybe 3 more icons, and don't pretend you didn't steal most of these from Loren anyway

Also with no scaling it's like, Toughness 50 con/20 str gives +50 HP: Congrats on reaching 50 con! Let's make that 60 con. Cya. It feels very dry.

I suggested 50 HP because I couldn't look up the actual in-game value at the time. As they are now, traits are kind of like passive bonuses. Not really something you strive for, but something you pick up if you allocated most of your points in a certain way. Even so, +50 HP would save you what, 18 stat points? (Maybe it could just be 10 HP regen or something instead?) It's also close to a 15-20% HP bonus when you get it, it just doesn't scale (which would have all kinds of balance problems - 15% HP can be a huge difference later).

Sure, in theory traits could be more "game-changing". Like the dual-weild one which can alter your strategy (though you seem to get it rather late for that). But they don't currently seem set up that way, in general, and it's getting a bit late to be making significant changes to the combat system.

[yayswords]

As they are now, traits are kind of like passive bonuses. Not really something you strive for, but something you pick up if you allocated most of your points in a certain way.

I'm pretty much racing to Toughness on an entire party. I would hardly rush with almost no exception to 50 con on 8 characters if not for the trait. I would probably stop at 40 with most if not all, and I wouldn't hurry so much to get there.

Anyway, after further thought, I think the whole idea of unlocking traits by reaching certain attribute levels is wrong, especially since stat pumping is otherwise discouraged: 1 point per upgrade until 20, 2 points until 40, and 3 after that... but if you manage to reach 50 you kinda get some bonus points, effectively like it suddenly got cheaper to spend points in the attribute. Yep, increasing the attribute gets progressively more expensive... but reach 50 to undo some of that! 20-40 you get 2.5 HP per point spent, and then 40+ you get 1.667 per point spent (worse), but if you push it to 50 and unlock the 50 bonus points it's suddenly 3.333 per point and more rewarding than the 20-40 step! As long as you stop there anyway. Stat pumping is discouraged but less so if you get really hardcore about it!

I'd rather we just picked traits like skills, and they varied between classes. Like the +defense trait for a warrior gives +10% (total, everything is total), and then +20% for a thief and +30% for a mage or something. However I'm a little concerned that we'd start building characters with few abilities and just a ton of traits to pimp us up. It's a cooler game when we use active abilities cleverly to own. If we could have "trait points" - maybe one at 5, one at 15 and one at 25 - or otherwise just cap us at max 3 traits that would avert that concern.

Can't say that wouldn't take us close to having to rebalance stuff though.

Also, I don't think I'm a fan of the dual wield trait. Why should you have to bend over backwards to make dual wield viable? Or is it, suffer through until you unlock that trait and then twosword starts beating bigsword? They should both work from level 1.

[jack1974]

Hmm OK then what about this: they unlock every fixed level, like 5-15-25 (can be changed) and are only 3 but specific for each class:
Warrior: Toughness, Attacker, Defender (would tweak last two so are worth it)
Thief: Dual Wield, Critical Hit Bonus, Cold Blood
Mage: Archwizard, Willpower, Elementalist

I could even make three grades of each one in a skilltree (like old Loren): Toughness 1 = 5% bonus HP, Toughness 2 = 10%, Toughness 3 = 15%
In total there would still be 9 traits to pick, so you could pick a point every 5 levels and with a level cap of 25 you would still not be able to pick them all.

This is something I can do without spending too much time even if, ahem, might not work on current saves

[fabulaparva]

Downside in limiting the traits to certain classes would be losing some of the customizing... For example, I have played with some non-standard choices for the traits, eg Cold Blooded mages or Critical hit/dual wield warriors... Not sure if anyone else likes to try out "weird combos" the way I do. I've even considered a defensive battlemage for the frontline as I have occasionally used some of my druid builds that way in act 1... The customization is one of the big fun factors for me here. Not saying that I absolutely "gottahaveit," I'll happily play with any trait-scheme you'll give us in the end. Just rooting for the choices available in class building so far.

[jack1974]

Yes those are good points too. Anyway, for now I'll go on finishing the game that's the most important thing

[yayswords]

Yeah that's not what I was asking for either, though of course there's no hurry with this. Maybe renke could hack the game to better demonstrate my idea

I just wanted to clarify what I said before: It doesn't make sense to have attribute requirements for the traits if the reward for unlocking them is the same as more points in that attribute. Then it'd be better to just keep it at +2/point past 40 too, else I think you'll see a lot of builds where attributes end at exactly 40, or exactly 50, or something much lower because the player wanted to unlock some other 50-trait.

[Troyen]

I see what you mean. If toughness was an HP bonus, it would be better if it required skills OTHER THAN Constitution. So, instead of spending points in Con, you could pick up Toughness to compensate if you went 25/25 skill/strength or something else. Likewise, raising a non-attack stat might give you the +25 attack trait. That way, you have more flexibility in stat choices without getting totally behind, and it does seem like a "bonus" rather than "I raised my HP to get LOTS more HP".

These numbers are totally made up off the top of my head. Balancing might require lower bonuses, especially if the traits are "easier" to get.

(If there's a concern that this would lead to too many trait bonuses, then combine this with a "trait point" at levels 5, 15, and 25, required to earn the trait.)