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I like the idea of traits used as special skill - and instead of using level steps a variant would be a trait for free as soon as two attributes reach 25 points (and 30/30, ...). So far I'm not conviced class-specific traits are needed, the existing ones are diverse and interesting enough to fulfill a role in every playing style and class combination (but some tweaking may be needed, out of my experience zone - I never used a trait so far)

> Maybe renke could hack the game
:P

I was thinking this: apart some rebalancing of the traits, what if you could choose a trait once you reach a certain level (5-15-25 skill so you can have max 3 traits), using a skill point. So INSTEAD of a skill you could chose a trait which is some sort of permanent passive bonus (indeed internally they're considered passive skills).
So as Troyen/yaysword said, player wouldn't get too many traits. Also could be interesting since you have to choose between that and a normal skill

Yes, I would like that. Just scrap the attribute requirements and retune the traits too.

You mean that at those levels we would get a skill point that can only be used on a trait? 'cause 5 isn't normally a skill point level, though 15 is, and 25 shouldn't be.

5 isn't a normal skill point level, but it does let you conceivably get a trait just before the end of the demo.

I'm not at all opposed to the idea, I'm just wondering if we're getting 3 extra skill points that can only be spent on traits, or nothing changes about skill points except what we can spend them on. Gotta bear in mind though that since we can't save skill points, the trait that unlocks at level 25 would require us to reach level 27 to actually spec into - I said "25 shouldn't be" because after the level 4 skill point, all skill points are gained at levels that are multiples of 3 (leading us to 24 and 27). And if we are getting bonus points that can only be used on traits, it would mean 2 points at level 15, and probably a programming challenge to make it so we can spend one on a skill and one on a trait.

Another way to award traits might be to give one for each completed act

renke_ wrote:I'm not conviced class-specific traits are needed

Allow me to clarify them again. Let's say you want a +defense (seems to be my favorite example) trait available to all classes. How much should it give? 10%? I would take that as warrior but not as a mage. 30%? I would take that as a mage (though not over +30% magic) and I would be overpowered with it as a warrior. I don't think we need entirely new concepts for every class, but the numbers should be adjusted. Although we should certainly get crit/dual wield traits out of the mage tree - dual wield out of all trees probably - and I would love to see speed/threshold traits.

I'm not saying invent traits like +20% magic bolt damage for mages and +20% ranged attack for thieves and +20% melee attack for warriors. Just that the current concepts should be tuned so that augmenting your strengths doesn't come as cheaply as fixing your weaknesses.

That's why I think flat bonuses would work better for multiple classes than %s. My arbitrary example of +25 defense is still all right for warriors because that's more armor than you can get on a single piece of gear. It may not be the best choice for every warrior, depending on the other traits, but that might be okay too - characters can specialize in different things. It also is effectively a bigger bonus for mages than warriors because mages have less armor in general to begin with, so +25 is a significant increase for them. (It's worth what, about 3-5 pieces of mage gear?)

Yes, effectively that might work out the same. I like the idea of flat bonuses much more when they're not tied to unlocking traits through attributes. It's quite a good idea.

However, bear in mind they will get gradually less exciting as the game goes on. That +25 defense could indeed be 5 pieces of gear for a mage early on, but could very well end up as 1-2. It will not quite create the effect of "the mage is now permanently this much less squishy", as the bonus will fade. It could be something like +3 defense/level if that's easily programmed. It's still a rather flat bonus, and it doesn't scale with loot luck or casino addiction.

(yes I live on these forums )

I like the idea of fixed value X level, not sure though if that could be easily programmable, should ask Anima about it
And the initial idea was to use the skill points to unlock the traits, to make it a more "tough choice". I actually think I can change the level up screen so that the players can go on without assigning the skillpoints if they want and have them accumulate like the attribute points. Need to check but should be fine!

If the traits will be tied to levels, then they'll be as easily acquired in NM/HARD as they are in EASY, as opposed to the attribute point-situation now. Not that I'd have anything against it. Just pointing it out. Maybe the fact that one gets fewer traits in NM/HARD - as the system is now - wasn't as big a part of the difficulty factor to begin with? Unless, of course, the fixed value gained per level will be different in each mode.

the guy who is hiding Chalassa fanservice from us wrote:And the initial idea was to use the skill points to unlock the traits, to make it a more "tough choice".

I think that sounds good, it should make for some tough choices indeed. But the level 25 trait unlock is gonna be a bit dangerous, since many people won't get that unless they know and remember to save the skill point. I'm not sure they need such harsh pacing. I'm looking through my characters and I'm not really finding a "ah yep, DEFINITELY taking three traits immediately here". On a druid I probably wouldn't take a trait until the 6th or 7th skill point, at least if their power level is around what we have been discussing. Same with Krimm and Vaelis; a lot of tools I'd likely want to get first. On a ranger and Riley it might be my 5th point. The others join so late that there's no such thing as "early traits" on them