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Re: how the heck to you beat deceit
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:48 am
by fabulaparva
Jack, by doing that you are turning the Easy-mode even more into a non-RPG and into a sole VN, which I thought you weren't planning to do. And also, after that, there's nothing "earning" left in Chalassa's happy ending,
It's all your decision, obviously, so I'll shut up.
Anyway, managed to beat him. The key was to throw heavy explosive bombs with Althea (&Jariel), and trying to inflict as many DoTs as possible on him, since both Shattered and Burned will give him -33hp per turn, which turned to be crucial in my trial. Also, Rowinda's candy was heavily used towards the end to deal with the constant paralysis. I didn't use Krimm. Placed Rowinda, Shea, Jariel in the front. Althea, Riley, Vaelis in the back. This party was hugely problematic for this type of a fight. I think that in RPGs, one usually need to take into consideration both the capability to do high singular enemy dmg as well as some row damage. ...
Editing more in here shortly, plus uploading savefile taken immediately after the battle, if you wanna use that to continue.
Re: how the heck to you beat deceit
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:52 am
by jack1974
fabulaparva wrote:Jack, by doing that you are turning the Easy-mode even more into a non-RPG and into a sole VN, which I thought you weren't planning to do. And also, after that, there's nothing "earning" left in Chalassa's happy ending,
It's all your decision, obviously, so I'll shut up.
People playing in Easy totally don't care about the RPG part. They don't want to equip the right item, pick the right skills, build up characters, reload, etc. It's fine, I know many people play like that. I think nobody can play in easy, then come here saying "BAH! Easy is too easy!!"
(unless they're like Rowinda, CRAZY!)
Instead I have already several threads with people playing in Easy complaining too much, being frustrated and so on. Normal mode will remain as it is. Remember that in Loren the normal difficulty was probably like Easy in SOTW or even easier! so...
(Also playing in Easy/Normal they get no achievements!)
Re: how the heck to you beat deceit
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:18 pm
by rooke30
People are complaining that "easy mode" is too hard because they picked the wrong skills/attributes/traits. That's actually a very common experience in older style RPGs and is the reason modern RPGs are being streamlined. For future reference you could make the auto-level up/suggested-level-up automatically create decent character builds...
Re: how the heck to you beat deceit
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:52 pm
by jack1974
rooke30 wrote:For future reference you could make the auto-level up/suggested-level-up automatically create decent character builds...
Yes that probably is the best solution, something that I already do on creation when picking the auto-skills gets them the healing/most useful skills for the 3 classes. Still I kind of understand them, since for example I was very frustrated by the difficulty of some games (Blackguard for example) even at the easiest difficulty level!
Re: how the heck to you beat deceit
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:03 pm
by fabulaparva
Save Chalassa -achievement Triggers for all difficulties. Not asking that to be changed, I think that it's good that there are also achievements that don't require everything hard/NM, just pointing out that that achievement with severely crippled Deceit will now be as easy as the "worst pirates"-achievement.
@edm181:
Heavily Abbreviated combat log in Spoiler just to show you the moves: Deceit started with Mass Paralysis before I could enable the log, so that first move is missing.
If you wonder about using Rowinda's canday for 0HP/SP, it's because I was using it for shortening the Paralysis effect further for one turn (Purification takes away only 3).
Deceit's turns in bold
In short.. Shea Purifies. Since Deceit tends to paralyze the backrow, Shea is put in the front as is Rowinda. Rowinda's spells have only a chance to inflict DoT conditions, but spamming those will eventually give you a run where they will stick. Heavy explosives and Vaelis throwing axes will help in inflicting Staggered on Deceit, after which a couple a other skills can be used. Inflicting Confusion and Slowed on Deceit will make him slightly easier to handle. His Cleanse removes only a number of turns of certain conditions, so spamming many turns of, eg slowed might pay off as he'll still have a couple of turns of that left on him after a Cleanse.
Not that any of this matters anymore, logging it here just in case.
(EDITED to remove the link)
Re: how the heck to you beat deceit
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:31 pm
by jack1974
fabulaparva wrote:Save Chalassa -achievement Triggers for all difficulties. Not asking that to be changed, I think that it's good that there are also achievements that don't require everything hard/NM, just pointing out that that achievement with severely crippled Deceit will now be as easy as the "worst pirates"-achievement.
I know but you shouldn't really compare yourself with other people
(it's a compliment!!)
Because here we're not talking about Nightmare, but people unable to win in Easy mode, and not just one... myself too. I tried that save 3-4 times and gave up. So I know might be a bit upsetting but you must consider what the average gamers can do, not what YOU can do. Not everyone has so much patience/skills as you (for sure, I haven't!).
Re: how the heck to you beat deceit
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:23 pm
by fabulaparva
Sometimes(?) I word stuff in ways that will translate poorly over the internet? It's not my intention to compare myself to anyone else, I'm actually trying to spread out the gospel that it can be done through trial and error. By anyone. I'm really not that special. Maybe just cursed with patience and happened to have an ounce more time for trying it out than Troyen had. This was a particularly challenging build for this particular fight even on easy, as he pointed out.
Re: how the heck to you beat deceit
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:33 pm
by jack1974
Yes, indeed I mentioned also the "patience" component. I know it well because several times I stopped playing games because I simply don't have time/patience to try a specific point (battle or puzzle or anything). Remember that Loren even had a "VN mode" in which you could skip all the battles, something that is not possible for SOTW (because some battles have specific conditions). So at least I want to make sure the Easy mode is winnable by anyone, even the most casual players
Re: how the heck to you beat deceit
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:50 pm
by Troyen
rooke30 wrote:People are complaining that "easy mode" is too hard because they picked the wrong skills/attributes/traits. That's actually a very common experience in older style RPGs and is the reason modern RPGs are being streamlined.
fabulaparva wrote:JThis party was hugely problematic for this type of a fight. I think that in RPGs, one usually need to take into consideration both the capability to do high singular enemy dmg as well as some row damage. ...
I think part of the problem, and I mentioned this in the other thread, is the skills that work best on Deceit aren't really needed on most of the enemies earlier in the game. I think the closest comparison to a tough single-target fight would be the Kodiak way back in Act 1. Since you're not up against heavy defense, healing, dispelling, paralysis-inflicting bosses
all by themselves until potentially the end of Act 3, you can easily have a build that works in the rest of the game, but falls flat here.
A few difficult (but not-Deceit level) single-boss fights using some of these mechanics interspersed in Act 2 and early Act 3 would have helped "guide" people to take skills more suitable for the heavy single-boss fights with Deceit and in Act 4.
(P.S. Nobody is talking about Jul, but I suspect she's equally as difficult with this team and some of the others.)
Re: how the heck to you beat deceit
Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:35 am
by edm181
Thank you! i really appreciate the advice i got from everyone