jack1974
Jul 17, 2013
We're planning to include both, ammo will take "slot space", so you can't carry unlimited ammo. And each ammo has different "weight" or "space". For example ammo for a big cannon will require more space than a 5mm gun

As for the ammo abundance outside battles, it will be one of the many factor influenced by the difficulty level, so playing in Easy mode will be basically impossible to run out of ammo, but in Hard/Iron Mode, ammo will be scarce. Of course, talking about "special ammo", since the most basic ammo that does less damage and has no special effects (burning, armor piercing, etc) will always be available (otherwise you couldn't fight lol).
Anima_
Jul 18, 2013
I am sad to read you were sick. Hope all is well now.
Thanks. It's gotten better but we are checking if it's chronic at the moment.
It's pretty much like Jack said, we don't have something concrete yet and the direction given may change along the way.
Personally I'm partial to your idea to link ammunition to the base building mine game.
On easy less ammunition will be necessary in the first place, since battles will be shorter.
Seloun
Jul 21, 2013
Ammunition that is not stored in a weapon or magazine is stored in a container inside the inventory. Each type having it's own container. At the end of an encounter the equipped weapons and magazines are automatically reloaded from the container.
That's actually a pretty elegant way to handle all consumable items, I think - a 'magazine' for combat usage which is refilled from a shared resource pool automatically between combats (e.g. medkits with charges refilled from a pool of medical inventory). A nice abstraction for usable items in general (limited use per fight, fully reusables could just be magazines filling from an infinite pool).
I'd be concerned about the level of micromanaging ammo types could introduce, though, especially given the large number of weapon categories. I suppose Bioshock-type route might be reasonable, with only one or two special types of ammo per category, and specific to the weapon category to accommodate the nature of the weapon. It's somewhat unclear if what's being managed is the ammo or the magazines (e.g. are magazines abstracted? or do you have to actually have a 'flaming small arms magazine' to use the ammo?). I rather like the magazine idea better with ammo being abstracted (maybe some ammos cost more ammo points) since that tends to force more interesting choices about selections (maybe flaming is the best choice, but you've only got two); ammo being the managed element means you could generally swap your entire squad out being fights, which makes ammo choice somewhat less significant. That's probably less of a distinction for the specialized weapon categories, since presumably you'll only have one or two typically with specialized weapons, making the choice of switching out the party ammo pretty much identical to switching out individuals' ammo. Also would discourage stacking weapon types if you knew you only would get one e.g. rapid fire sniper ammo magazine; I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing. A mixed approach is always possible I suppose (magazine-based for small arms, ammo-based for specialty arms).
Anima_
Jul 21, 2013
That's actually a pretty elegant way to handle all consumable items, I think - a 'magazine' for combat usage which is refilled from a shared resource pool automatically between combats (e.g. medkits with charges refilled from a pool of medical inventory). A nice abstraction for usable items in general (limited use per fight, fully reusables could just be magazines filling from an infinite pool).
We do already have a refill mechanic planned. I'm not sure if we'll abstract usable items to that degree, but it's an interesting idea.
I'd be concerned about the level of micromanaging ammo types could introduce, though, especially given the large number of weapon categories. I suppose Bioshock-type route might be reasonable, with only one or two special types of ammo per category, and specific to the weapon category to accommodate the nature of the weapon. It's somewhat unclear if what's being managed is the ammo or the magazines (e.g. are magazines abstracted? or do you have to actually have a 'flaming small arms magazine' to use the ammo?). I rather like the magazine idea better with ammo being abstracted (maybe some ammos cost more ammo points) since that tends to force more interesting choices about selections (maybe flaming is the best choice, but you've only got two); ammo being the managed element means you could generally swap your entire squad out being fights, which makes ammo choice somewhat less significant. That's probably less of a distinction for the specialized weapon categories, since presumably you'll only have one or two typically with specialized weapons, making the choice of switching out the party ammo pretty much identical to switching out individuals' ammo. Also would discourage stacking weapon types if you knew you only would get one e.g. rapid fire sniper ammo magazine; I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing. A mixed approach is always possible I suppose (magazine-based for small arms, ammo-based for specialty arms).
We generally work on the level of ammunition. Magazines themselves are only specific to the weapon category (I'm thinking about putting sniper rifle ammunition in the same group and simply create a kinetic weapon ammunition group. The ammunition would then determine the used equipment capacity.) While we discussed the magazine level model, Jack decided that we'll go with the ammunition level.
Seloun
Jul 21, 2013
We generally work on the level of ammunition. Magazines themselves are only specific to the weapon category (I'm thinking about putting sniper rifle ammunition in the same group and simply create a kinetic weapon ammunition group. The ammunition would then determine the used equipment capacity.) While we discussed the magazine level model, Jack decided that we'll go with the ammunition level.
Hmm - so you should be able to switch out the entire party's ammo types between fights as soon as you can access them? Assuming the ammo pool will support that usage, that is. That seems to raise the balance range based on min/maxing ammo, and thus the how much impact ammo should have on the fight to be somewhat lower than if it was magazine based. Alternatively means knowing enemy weaknesses or comp becomes even more important.
jack1974
Jul 21, 2013
Yes magazines was more realistic, but was an extra layer of difficulty in coding and also for the interface, and besides I don't think it was really needed. If I remember correctly most recent games using weapon+ammo works the same (XCOM, Borderlands 2, etc).
That seems to raise the balance range based on min/maxing ammo, and thus the how much impact ammo should have on the fight to be somewhat lower than if it was magazine based.
well since even the ammo containers take space, you won't be able to carry ALL the ammo you want in the battle. So you'll have to choose. More ammo for the machineguns, or more missiles for the bazooka, etc. Of course as I said, the basic ammo will be unlimited but that will be the most low damage ammo available.
Seloun
Jul 21, 2013
Yes magazines was more realistic, but was an extra layer of difficulty in coding and also for the interface, and besides I don't think it was really needed. If I remember correctly most recent games using weapon+ammo works the same (XCOM, Borderlands 2, etc).
...
well since even the ammo containers take space, you won't be able to carry ALL the ammo you want in the battle. So you'll have to choose. More ammo for the machineguns, or more missiles for the bazooka, etc. Of course as I said, the basic ammo will be unlimited but that will be the most low damage ammo available.
What I meant is that you could for example bring all fire ammo for fight A, then bring all shock ammo (or whatever) for fight B - that is, you can switch out the entire party at once as long as your stores are sufficient. This would be contrasted by e.g. having 2 fire magazines, which limits over the entire party how much ammo of that type you can bring per fight; assuming the magazines are placed like guns (you can't arbitrarily make more, just refill them) this provides some hard limits on things that have to be considered for balancing encounters (e.g. you can know that the party will not have more than 2 magazines worth of fire ammo in a given fight). I seem to remember this sort of system being used before in similar games, though I can't think of an example offhand (where ammo type is treated as effectively as a discrete mod rather than as 'loose' ammo).
I'm not saying either system is better, just highlighting what I see as the consequence - being able to switch out the entire party at once readily will generally mean that correct ammo selection will be more important than if it was artificially limited like in the magazine model (although this is not the only way to limit it) => raises the player's skill cap.
jack1974
Jul 22, 2013
Yes I understand what you mean. In the game will be more like, there's mission Y, what do you bring with you? then I'll probably offer a mission briefing with some info (maybe some unlocked through quests or items or skills) but in the actual battlefield there could be unexpected events (side missions and more) that will mess up your original plan, to add an element of surprise.
An example of the magazine system is the excellent Silent Storm game (one of the best tactical RPG I've played).
Seloun
Jul 22, 2013
Yes I understand what you mean. In the game will be more like, there's mission Y, what do you bring with you? then I'll probably offer a mission briefing with some info (maybe some unlocked through quests or items or skills) but in the actual battlefield there could be unexpected events (side missions and more) that will mess up your original plan, to add an element of surprise.
An example of the magazine system is the excellent Silent Storm game (one of the best tactical RPG I've played).
Well, I don't think Silent Storm's system was what I was thinking about regarding a magazine system (though yes, the game was pretty amazing). What I was referring to is more like Mass Effect 1's system where the ammo is actually essentially a gun upgrade component and non-fungible. The important part is not that the ammo is grouped as magazines, but that you only can have N magazines of a specific type of ammo (where N is much less than your maximum magazine capacity). E.g. if you have two fire ammo magazines, that's the most fire ammo you can bring, even if you have plenty of fire ammo and plenty of item slots to bring magazines.
The possible issue (and this may not actually be an issue) is that with loose ammo will generally result in a wider variance in the party performance since you can make a much more drastic switch in ammo selection than if your ammo selection is limited. That means that the gap between min-maxing and not min-maxing will be larger. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the consequence is likely that the skill cap will be higher with loose ammo (fungible) versus limited selection.
jack1974
Jul 23, 2013
Ah OK I understand what you mean now. Well the "container size" or basically "how much special ammo of each type" could change based on the difficulty level maybe ? Right now is still in the early stages, for example I haven't decided how many different ammo types there will be in the game. Maybe it would be better if ammo wasn't reusable between weapons categories? like for example, there would be Laser Pistol Ammo, Laser Rifle Ammo, and so on? Maybe this way would make more sense since some weapons would be better used by specific Classes?
Franka
Jul 23, 2013
I'm against too much minutiae. Having to fiddle with ammo types for every single kind of weapon just bogs the game down to needless managing and clicking. Ammo types are fine, so long as the intent is to limit the use of the most powerful weapons, or to add an extra tactical dimension during combat itself (reloading, switching ammo), but I hope that's all it will be used for.
jack1974
Jul 23, 2013
Yes that's the good old problem... some people hate micromanagement, while other like it. Personally, I don't like it, though when I was younger I was playing games with lots of micromanagement!
So yes maybe there's no need to have separate ammo for EACH weapon, but could be like in Fallout 3, where there is ammo that works with 2-3 weapons, another ammo that works with 2-3 and so on (thinking about laser weapons and plasma weapons for example).
I just remembered that Anima is doing the main game design for PS2 (my task will be to populate the database and make the encounters), so I'm sure he'll do a good job anyway!

Jaeger
Jul 23, 2013
Micromanagement is required in most RPGs, from checking your party's condition to the inventory. Equipping your party the right way was important in Planet Stronghold since enemies had varied levels of defense against certain types of attacks. It's wasn't as important in Loren since the game was considerably easier and the impact of equipment was less dramatic. An improved user interface for inventory management can alleviate some of the tedium. Having an "Unequip All" and "Optimize Equip" would reduce the need to hunt down equipment used by certain certain party members when trying to swap gear.
jack1974
Jul 24, 2013
Yes the equipment screen is completely revamped by Anima, I saw a preview and is much more intuitive (also in PS2 there are still less armor/weapons slots than Loren).
But an "optimize equip" button what would exactly do? Doing automatic equipment?
Jaeger
Jul 24, 2013
Yes the equipment screen is completely revamped by Anima, I saw a preview and is much more intuitive (also in PS2 there are still less armor/weapons slots than Loren).
But an "optimize equip" button what would exactly do? Doing automatic equipment?
"Optimize Equip" command, which is used in Final Fantasy games, automatically chooses the "best" equipment for a character. That usually means the weapon with the highest base damage and armor with the highest physical defense. Granted, it is flawed in the sense that it doesn't take into account special properties or bonuses unique to the piece of equipment, however it might appeal to lazy players who don't want to compare equipment.
jack1974
Jul 24, 2013
Ah OK. The problem is that it doesn't also consider the elemental bonus/weaknesses. But it's a good system, personally I prefer when there's a icon or the best item/weapon is highlighted somehow. Like you browse the pistols, and you can sort them based on damage. I think with the new equipment screen layout that Anima designed it should be very simple to do (or maybe he already planned that). Doing the auto-equip could also be possible, maybe with some extra options like "pick best energy weapon" and so on. Will talk with him later about it

DunKalar
Jul 24, 2013
I think it will be a challenge too, to take the chosen skill distribution into account. E.g. the algorythm has to include synergy effects between skills and such.
Anima_
Jul 25, 2013
While I can see the appeal of an auto equip I hope that it wont make much sense for PS2. In (earlier?) FF games new equipment only increased a single core number per equipment class, everything else was just a bonus. Our goal is to have more meaning in the choice of your gear then just take whatever does the most damage. Of course I can still write a function for that, it's not too hard. It won't be that optimized though.
The inventory will definitely get a sort function, maybe a filter as well. Depends on the number and kind of items in the game.
My current plan is to restrict ammunition only by kind. So guns get bullets (Still thinking about including or excluding sniper rifles), while energy weapons get batteries. Heavy weapons have more variety and the ammunition for that might actually be unique to a weapon.
@Seloun
[color=#FFFFBF]Still thinking about that.[/color]Thought about it.
There are three variants for magazines we have to consider.
[list]
[*]Weapons have an ammunition capacity and universal magazines can infinitely reload the weapon the are attached too.
[*]Universal magazines have an ammunition capacity and reloading weapons will require switching magazines.
[*]Weapons have an ammunition capacity and can be reloaded from separate finite universal magazines.[/list]
The second is right out. I'd rather have design space on the weapon then on the magazine.
The first is also out, it violates my design principle that in an encounter all resources are finite.
Witch leaves us with the third, our current approach. Refilling the magazines after an encounter would be easy enough and wouldn't violate the afore mentioned design principle, since it's still finite in an encounter.
The problem is that the weapons are directly associated with the ammunition not the magazine. We could change it that they get loaded from a magazine instead. Which raises questions like which magazine is attached to the weapon and if the attachment is exclusive. Is it required to have the magazine equipped as an item? Would the initial loading be deducted from the magazine capacity?
Personally I think it's a good idea. But I'll have to talk with Jack about it, since it touches the "map" game mechanics as well.
jack1974
Jul 25, 2013
The third approach is fine for me, as long as there is some basic ammo always available to avoid bad situations were people run out of ammo in an encounter (unless we add an option to hit enemies with the guns themselves

).
If I understood what you mean I would make the attachment exclusive to each weapon. So we couldn't have:
Weapon A that can use Magazine X,Y with different capacities
I don't see much the sense in having different magazine sizes? it seems to overcomplicate stuff for nothing. Maybe there would be weapon that can carry more ammo, like an upgrade.
In summary I would make the magazine "transparent" to the user, something I could use internally to define a weapon. For example:
Normal Pistol = attach magazine size of 12
Special Pistol = attach magazine size of 15
and so on. Like in real life, there are weapons like the Colt that can carry 6 rounds, while a Beretta can carry 21 (I think, I'm not sure but you get the idea). Then of course you can carry different ammo type, incendiary ammo, freezing ammo, etc.
Anima_
Jul 29, 2013
Discussed it with Jack.
We'll be going with a resetting magazine approach.
So the ammunition type is specific to the magazine and the magazine is refilled after a fight.
Weapons retain their individual capacities. They are simply filled from the magazine at the start of a fight and with a reload action.
It's possible to run out of ammunition inside a fight now, though it's now impossible to run out of it outside of fights.