Callista
Mar 12, 2016
For what it's worth, I totally go for that idea, having the DLC include the option to switch art styles. And I do agree that it'd be too much to do different art styles for CGs. From what I've been reading, it seems that the majority of people who disliked the art in PSCD had issues with the character sprites. XD
But perhaps you can have a poll asking people about the DLC idea? ^^
jack1974
Mar 12, 2016
Well it's not like the switch would work only for those who have the DLC - it would work always. But I would take the "occasion" of the DLC release to also announce a new art style available for the game. I need to think about it, since there are two possible outcomes:
1) the risk of wasting even more money on a lost cause
2) the possibility to change the long-term sales (since the launch now it's already "ruined")
Of course in first case I would smash my balls with a 2handed warhammer, while in the second, I would be pleased
pahldus
Mar 12, 2016
Personally, I don't think art change is going to be enough to sway enough people to help you recoup the costs. If you had made the decision beforehand, maybe, but even then, I think this was just a perfect storm of everyone finding one thing they didn't like and deciding not to buy it for that reason.
jack1974
Mar 12, 2016
Yeah that's true. I think it's safe to say in any case that in future I'll stick to the manga art style. Surely I got a lot of people on Steam that thought Nicole art was shit, all characters identical, bla bla. But what matters to me is if the game sells or not, and Nicole does as expected
Same for PS1, or any other game with manga art, really.
Exceptions are if somehow I'll manage to get non-manga but universally acclaimed artists like Vinegaria or others.
Dankovsky
Mar 12, 2016
Hey again, Jack.
Honestly I think it's time to move on from PSCD. Remaking the entire art style will take a lot of time and even more money, at it will not win you nearly enough sales to get your money back.
Now please don't think that the game is failed or ruined. Run some generous steam sales, give out some steam keys to loyal members of your community and ask them to write some reviews. The game currently has just 1 review. When people see there are more good reviews, they will be much more likely to buy it when it pops up on their steam page somewhere.
Also, be aware not many people on steam nowadays buy games on release date for full price, except when they're overhyped in advance (and that's mostly for huge AAA games like Fallout 4). Personally even though I'm not a fan of the writing or the art style I would still gladly buy it to check it out (and because I like card games) when it's discounted at 50-70%.
You have a lot of unreleased projects. Focus on making them great instead.
If you're looking for a game that WILL sell, here is a basic idea:
Make a romantic visual novel in the art style of Always Remember Me (it has the most visually appealing art style among all your games). Drop the heavy grinding/stat raising elements. Focus on writing: making a likeable protagonist, well developed romantic interests, interesting personal plot and romantic subplots (routes). Make 3-4 routes at about 5 hours long each. I believe this won't take too much of your time or money. Hire an independent editor to oversee your writers. Since this is mostly art/writing project, you'll be able to code whatever else you want in the meanwhile.
Once again, best of luck to you.
Danko
jack1974
Mar 12, 2016
Haha thanks
Yes I don't think PSCD is a failure, it just didn't do as I expected. Though to be honest is a relief that is about the art, and not about the card game because I have some more cool ideas to do for Undead Lily (another card game).
I also agree about people rarely buying at full price, and that in combination with just TOO MANY GOOD GAMES out now, is a problem. However, people on Steam are still buying Loren and SOTW fullprice, so there's also a problem of quality
Regarding your suggestion, I am doing the sequel to Always Remember Me indeed, and there won't be stat grinding (not like previous games anyway, a different idea).
Katicflis
Mar 12, 2016
Loren-artist was your best artist. Her proportions/designs were gorgeous and she used that popular art style. She gave your indie games a look of incredible polish and created art worthy of big-budget RPGs. For reasons I can't recall, you lost her as an artist. You will not sell games as well without her or an equivalent to her skill. At least not the sort of games you're used to making. You're focused on small-scale RPGs and visual novels and the art is probably more important for this genre than any other genre. I saw you say 'well I have to have dependable artsists too!' in another topic. That's fine, but it sounds like you're willing to cut corners with the art but want Loren-level results anyway -- it's not gonna happen.
I say this as a fan of Dennis art and I am a bit irked by all the people saying they 'can't handle PSCD's art' even though I'd honestly place it just beneath Loren. But people love their manga and out of all the artists you hired, Loren-artist was the best at that.
jack1974
Mar 12, 2016
He got a fulltime job somewhere in Japan (I'm not sure, he didn't seem to want to share details so I respect his privacy).
It's not a problem of cutting corners, it's a problem that an artist like Loren it's EXTREMELY HARD to find (I probably won't find one like that again).
But you're missing a point, ALL my other games are OK. C14 Dating is doing well. Deji is good of course. Nicole and the other games done by that artist? OK. Basically, the ONLY other game that did badly (compared to expectation, time, money spent) was Vera Blanc and Bionic Heart 2
Even Roommates with its art style? still a MUCH MUCH better result than PSCD.
So, I think it's simply that realism for my customers (but also, Steam customers!) it's not good. Maybe if they weren't visual novels, but "gameplay based games" would be different.
lanawinst
Mar 12, 2016
I still think that the low sales are due to a convergence of multiple factors. I myself for example very rarely buy game at full price, and usually would rather wait for it to cost from 5 to 15 euros even for big AAA games. First of all, 20 euros is expensive for people who have low-salaries, that's why I don't go to the movies and buy my coffee cheap on 0.30 euros machines. Add that to the fact that I don't like card games, and you got the reason why I didn't buy it in the first place. But now that I have the pleasure of playing the game, I find it very enjoyable, I can't comment on the card gameplay since I'm playing on the VN mode only, but the writer did a great job with it
But then, it seems that most people have a problem with the art style, which I find unfortunate, because the artist isn't a bad one, just one that doesn't seem to cater to the tastes of VN lovers. I don't know if you know of Voltage ? They seem to have had the same issue. They branched out with games catered to US audiences, but the art was highly criticized for being ugly, just because it wasn't manga-like. And despite having way, way better stories, and featuring characters who didn't all look the same, sold very poorly, and they eventually discontinued almost all of their US games, and are now trying out for a more manga-like form of art. It's a bit saddening for people like me who don't find manga very appealing but alas, I guess it can't be avoided.
jack1974
Mar 12, 2016
But now that I have the pleasure of playing the game, I find it very enjoyable, I can't comment on the card gameplay since I'm playing on the VN mode only, but the writer did a great job with it
Thanks
indeed knowing the value of the game, that I was a bit disappointed (I also think the card game is decent).
But then, it seems that most people have a problem with the art style, which I find unfortunate, because the artist isn't a bad one, just one that doesn't seem to cater to the tastes of VN lovers. I don't know if you know of Voltage ? They seem to have had the same issue. They branched out with games catered to US audiences, but the art was highly criticized for being ugly, just because it wasn't manga-like. And despite having way, way better stories, and featuring characters who didn't all look the same, sold very poorly, and they eventually discontinued almost all of their US games, and are now trying out for a more manga-like form of art. It's a bit saddening for people like me who don't find manga very appealing but alas, I guess it can't be avoided.
Ah wow! I know them by name, but didn't know about this story! Well, it just confirms my fears then. If I made a pure RPG (no plot) or some other kind of game, non-manga art wouldn't be a problem. Maybe I can keep Dennis for such future games
But for VN, it seems really that manga is a "must".
Pace675
Mar 12, 2016
I say this as a fan of Dennis art and I am a bit irked by all the people saying they 'can't handle PSCD's art' even though I'd honestly place it just beneath Loren. But people love their manga and out of all the artists you hired, Loren-artist was the best at that.
Huh what? I like all art styles, I just really do not like Dennis' style. It is just that simple. Simply put his character expressions are cringe worth at best. Seriously if a person facial expression were like that in real life you would probably say, 'Are you alright brah?' It has been noted and commented by others, the face proportions are off too much to be 'life like' but are close enough to put people on edge due to the 'uncanny valley' feel.
With VNs (I have to disagree with you here Jack) VNs do not HAVE to use magna style art to be successful, but the art MUST match the story you are trying to tell to be successful. Take Cinders for example:
http://i.imgur.com/Q5ei1f2.jpg" style="max-width:100%">
It is a dark and somewhat more grittier telling of the Cinderella story (more in line with the original) and the art work in conjunction with the story not overpowering it, adding another layer to the story itself.
Let me say this, would I buy Dennis' art; YES I would, but not how it is currently presented in the current games. But I would be happy to commission him though.
1> His realism comes off as fake (See other painted realist that have been shown on these forums and compare).
2> Proportions are off
If you want to know how I would use Dennis' work in a VN format it is simple, set in a sci-fi setting, where the majority of the cast including the PC are android human facsimiles and you can use the artist's natural inclinations for the betterment of the story. There you can use the unease to enhance the story not detract from it.
I agree Loren's artist was not the best I still like the original of PS better and there are a couple others I would place above Lorens but that is another debate :p. (I do absolute love Loren's art tho! Jul just ROWR)
jack1974
Mar 12, 2016
Yes but the Moacube example is not useful. They made the story tailored to the artist. They live in same town. If I was living 5km away from the artists or writers... let's say my real-life spiked whip would work wonders and they wouldn't take 3 years to make a game or write a story
Jokes apart, if I could brainstorm with them or was living so close, and most importantly, could speak same language, it would be a gazillion time easier to do everything, including planning the right game for right writer/artist/whatever.
Working over internet is cool because lets me do games with people all around the world, but it would be for sure easier in other conditions
Overall the main reason for some mistakes is that in past months was overworking myself, doing too many things at once, so I couldn't manage the stuff properly (in some cases I even asked the writers to help me since I couldn't make it!). I think after the current batch of games is done things should be better since I found a good group of writers who are reliable, and several artist I can use.
Dankovsky
Mar 12, 2016
Cinders art IS kind of pretty, but it's still not nearly as appealing to general audience as usual manga cartoony girls. It is REALLY hard to make realistic art visually appealing. I gladly played and enjoyed all of Cinders, but I still cringed at some of the characters and their facial expressions, and they still failed to capture the general audience interest. They have even bigger problem selling recently released Solstice now, and I also believe the main issue is visually unappealing characters.
Actually, Jack, since you seem to really like asking people's opinion (which is nice): I have an idea. Why don't you create a thread with screenshots from your every game, and ask people to vote which visual style they like best/most likely to buy? That should give you an idea for further art direction.
Even better if you could promote it on other forums so you would get more unbiased opinions.
Franka
Mar 12, 2016
I am absolutely baffled by how much importance people place on art styles being so specifically tailored to their personal tastes, sometimes to the extreme point that they will dismiss something completely, purely because a couple of lines don't agree with them. I mean, it's fair enough, everybody's free to form their own opinions and act on them, I'm just not able to comprehend that artwork matters more than writing, setting and gameplay. However, I see from the voting that it absolutely does, so clearly there's something important to take away from all this.
I wonder, have I just become old? Maybe I've simply forgotten that not everyone grew up with much simpler games, where characters were blocks that you needed a healthy imagination to approximate to anything human.
This was once my favorite game.
http://i.imgur.com/Ghz1JQ0.png" style="max-width:100%">
Dankovsky
Mar 12, 2016
Well, it's not just about choosing between "manga/comic/painted", it's much more nuanced still. I think it's all about finding the right artist that can make the characters look just right, so that the viewer will instantly like them.
That said, here is my own personal rating of "visual appeal" based on your PC games (their screenshots, to be precise):
[list]Dead but Alive: sorry, the characters are ugly as hell
Love&Order: a little generic and they all look very much alike, but still pretty cute
Vera Blanc: this doesn't look very high quality to me, although it could work in a printed comic book
Winter in Fairbrook: pretty cute for an otome game
Heileen: this artist actually has some personal style, I think he made some good work. This is a pretty mixed western/manga style. not perfect, but nice.
Bionic Heart: it's not perfect, but it's still a unique mixed style. is it the same artist as heileen?
Spirited Heart: the art does look a little on the cheap side, and it was probably made by different artists so it doesn't mix right, but it could work
Always Remember Me: this is probably as closest to perfect otome art as you could get. Give this guy some money and never let go.
Planet Stronghold: Actually, damn. Who is this artist? This is a PERFECT mixed style. http://static.winterwolves.com/assets/planetstronghold/images/game03.jpg is instant love. Great proportions, perfect lineart and cell shading. Hire this guy. If you won't, I will.
Loren: I'm not that big a fan of this style as other guys here, but I admit it looks pretty alright in a western way.
Bionic Heart 2: I personally kind of like it, but I can see why it might not work with everyone
Nicole: I'll give it 8,5 on an otome scale
Roommates: the style works, but every character apart from the main girl does not look very likeable
SOTW: it does look just a bit amateurish, but personally I still like it.
PSCD: well, you heard it all already. this fails to look realistic and looks silly instead.[/list]
Overall I have to say most of the artists that try to go for a western/mixed style tend to look a little amateurish.
The most professional looking art tends to be from more pure manga-style artists: Roommates, Nicole, Always Remember Me, Flower Shop, Love & Order. Oh and I still think original Planet Stronghold artist is a gem. What's his name?
@Franka it depends on the game a lot. There is no way around making likeable character sprites if you're making a visual novel. And yes, the general consumer logic's first question is "Do I like what I see?". If the answer is "Not really", no amount of promised good gameplay or awesome story will make them buy the game (exceptions rarely apply).
jack1974
Mar 12, 2016
I am absolutely baffled by how much importance people place on art styles being so specifically tailored to their personal tastes, sometimes to the extreme point that they will dismiss something completely, purely because a couple of lines don't agree with them. I mean, it's fair enough, everybody's free to form their own opinions and act on them, I'm just not able to comprehend that artwork matters more than writing, setting and gameplay. However, I see from the voting that it absolutely does, so clearly there's something important to take away from all this.
Haha yes sometimes I laugh reading how important is a small detail for someone. But I am not considering that of course. I am looking at the overall poll results and also interesting info like that Voltage story. BTW I remember that game! I don't know the name but I remember playing it a lot. I am old too
@Dankovsky : yes both Heileen and Bionic Heart 1 are by same artist. That artist is currently working on Love Bites (a new game)
Original PS artist is good but extremely slow, she took 3 years to make the art for the sequel... by the point the art was ready, I had already started other games. She is busy with convention and other stuff so it's unlikely I'll do another game with her after PS2.
lanawinst
Mar 12, 2016
It is REALLY hard to make realistic art visually appealing.Overall I have to say most of the artists that try to go for a western/mixed style tend to look a little amateurish
I could say the same for manga art style, since I personally find that manga arts with its propensity to exaggerate the human (and sometimes environmental) features among other things often lacks the subtleties and nuances that professional western drawings can have, even with the professional and most acclaimed manga artists, so let's agree to disagree there. I really do feel that in the end it boils down to a matter of taste here.
I am absolutely baffled by how much importance people place on art styles being so specifically tailored to their personal tastes, sometimes to the extreme point that they will dismiss something completely, purely because a couple of lines don't agree with them. I mean, it's fair enough, everybody's free to form their own opinions and act on them, I'm just not able to comprehend that artwork matters more than writing, setting and gameplay. However, I see from the voting that it absolutely does, so clearly there's something important to take away from all this.
I'm as baffled as you. I don't need a game to be made in my favorite art style to buy it, I care so much more about the story, and gameplay. Otherwise I would have bought very few VNs, that's for sure :p And you know the weird thing? This attachement to graphics is not as important for other type of games. Look at how well undertale did! Why does graphics matter little with RPGS but so much with VNS is beyond me, I'll admit.
jack1974
Mar 12, 2016
Look at how well undertale did! Why does graphics matter little with RPGS but so much with VNS is beyond me, I'll admit.
I think is correct to say "romance VN" (or dating sim), not VN in general. I think because the characters must look sexy/attractive/etc. Also, majority of players are female, so for them maybe manga works better (cuter, etc).
Pace675
Mar 12, 2016
I'm just not able to comprehend that artwork matters more than writing, setting and gameplay. However, I see from the voting that it absolutely does, so clearly there's something important to take away from all this.
I still buy and play CYOA games, no art whatsoever and I am happy with them. They tell a great story and actions have consequences so pure win! But when you veer off the path a little to VN and add art to the story it should not pull away from your imagination, but add to it. You loose out in choices with a VN due to its inherent linear nature and narrative, but gain a mental image of what the creator is trying to present with visual aids.
I wonder, have I just become old? Maybe I've simply forgotten that not everyone grew up with much simpler games, where characters were blocks that you needed a healthy imagination to approximate to anything human.
I have play the orginal CONSOLE version of pong. Yes there was only one game with two paddle a console and an RF switch you hooked up back to your old analog TV, it was black and white, no plot no story, just pong. It was brilliant, then came Atari 2600, ColecoVision , and a plethora of first gen consoles that brought in the pixelated revolution of fun! Anyone remember Zork? XD A simple text based adventure that ate away the hours.
But as with everything, time progresses and so does expectations, it is just a fact. If a game has art in it nowadays, I have to like it, or I am not buying it; it is just that simple. I put my money where my mouth is, I like it I buy it, just that simple.
This was once my favorite game.
How about ET? XD
http://i.imgur.com/LVfBVl4.png" style="max-width:100%">
But nowadays even the rose tinted glasses BG2 is about as far as I am willing to go back now. Even with fond memories sometimes it is best to move forward and cherish those days, VR is here so....You ready for the next generation?
