Winter Wolves - Planet Stronghold: Colonial Defense

lanawinst Mar 12, 2016

I think is correct to say "romance VN" (or dating sim), not VN in general. I think because the characters must look sexy/attractive/etc. Also, majority of players are female, so for them maybe manga works better (cuter, etc).

Point conceded, it applies more to romance VNS than other VNS

But I'm a female and I don't find manga drawings cuter, just more childish-looking. Although maybe you meant cute as opposed to mature? After all it may also be an age thing, most of the female playing "romance VN" are probably female teenagers and my teens years are long gone.

Zeta123 Mar 12, 2016

@lanawinst I think it's because the art is the first thing that people notice so once they don't like them, they won't bother to try the demo to see the gameplay and writing.

kadakithis Mar 12, 2016

I am absolutely baffled by how much importance people place on art styles being so specifically tailored to their personal tastes, sometimes to the extreme point that they will dismiss something completely, purely because a couple of lines don't agree with them. I mean, it's fair enough, everybody's free to form their own opinions and act on them, I'm just not able to comprehend that artwork matters more than writing, setting and gameplay. However, I see from the voting that it absolutely does, so clearly there's something important to take away from all this.

I wonder, have I just become old? Maybe I've simply forgotten that not everyone grew up with much simpler games, where characters were blocks that you needed a healthy imagination to approximate to anything human.

This was once my favorite game.

Well Undertale became insanely popular, because story/characters/humor and it is pixel so not entirely out for the count.

Lonestar51 Mar 12, 2016

When I tried the demo, I never got really into it. With "it" I mean the battles, the card game mechanics just does not work for me. It tells me "Simulation of cards which are simulation of battle", instead of just a "simulation of battle". The additional layer of representation just removes any motivation.

Also the battle difficulty suddenly spiked, one sidequest is easy, the next is near impossible.

Additional problems (though not the ones why I decided not to buy):

- I had problems keeping the female chars apart. The dialog is too short to make them memorable, and the pictures are too much like "one girl with different hairstyles" instead of making them different characters. The males are fine though, and I like the art style in general.

- Since any char brings different cards, I stopped looking at the chars behaviour or character. They were reduced to "which card do I need for my playstyle", disconnecting me further from any motivation.

- The writing (at least in the first few scenes) does not give the impression of a military setting. A group of friends might talk like this, but not soldiers on a dangerous outpost.

PS: I might tell you stuff already told by several people, or directly contradict several previous opinion. I did not yet read through the thread, as I wanted to give an unbiased feedback.

Franka Mar 12, 2016

@Franka it depends on the game a lot. There is no way around making likeable character sprites if you're making a visual novel. And yes, the general consumer logic's first question is "Do I like what I see?"

Well, I wouldn't want to make generalizations since I only really know my own opinion.

This attachement to graphics is not as important for other type of games. Look at how well undertale did! Why does graphics matter little with RPGS but so much with VNS is beyond me, I'll admit.

I can understand that graphics matter for a genre called "visual" novel, just not that it matters so overwhelmingly. Especially for hybrid genres that also have a completely different gameplay element to them.

Undertale is kind of a special case, in that part of its massive popularity came from people that hadn't actually played the game, but were riding the wave simply because it upset other people.

But when you veer off the path a little to VN and add art to the story it should not pull away from your imagination, but add to it. You loose out in choices with a VN due to its inherent linear nature and narrative, but gain a mental image of what the creator is trying to present with visual aids.

Fair enough that you feel this way. I've given chances to some pretty bad looking VNs though, if the story or setting intrigued me. There will be so many limitations to what you can do anyway, such as typically no more than two stances and maybe six expressions per important character, that immersion will be broken no matter what.

I have play the orginal CONSOLE version of pong. Yes there was only one game with two paddle a console and an RF switch you hooked up back to your old analog TV, it was black and white, no plot no story, just pong.

Oh yeah, I started out on text games with horrible parsers.

Graphics came much later.

But as with everything, time progresses and so does expectations, it is just a fact. If a game has art in it nowadays, I have to like it, or I am not buying it; it is just that simple. I put my money where my mouth is, I like it I buy it, just that simple.

Which is cool, but confusing to me, because art is mostly secondary and sometimes less than that to my own personal enjoyment of a computer game. Yours is apparently the majority stance though, which is obviously important to take note of.

How about ET? XD

Even back then, when we didn't have the internet for instant reviews, I knew better than to play ET.

But this was a case where no amount of graphics could have saved the game.

But nowadays even the rose tinted glasses BG2 is about as far as I am willing to go back now.

I was trying to get one of the old Gold Box SSI RPGs to run the other day, but it's sadly become such a technical nightmare. Admittedly, there is a period of time between early games and modern games that I'm having trouble playing now due to graphics that haven't aged well.

VR is here so....You ready for the next generation?

Nah, I'm not interested in the infancy of VR. Maybe in 10 years.

Pace675 Mar 12, 2016

I was trying to get one of the old Gold Box SSI RPGs to run the other day, but it's sadly become such a technical nightmare. Admittedly, there is a period of time between early games and modern games that I'm having trouble playing now due to graphics that haven't aged well.

Curse of the Azure Bonds was my favorite....Alias of Westgate, god I had such a nerd crush on her lol. I wonder if TV Tropes got that trope directly from this source about her chain-mail?

https://www.gog.com/game/forgotten_realms_the_archives_collection_two

Merry Christmas, they live on AND work on today's machines!

Nah, I'm not interested in the infancy of VR. Maybe in 10 years.

Lol I am here with too, I just want to jack into the matrix and be done with it XD.

Lady Dee Mar 12, 2016

With gaming becoming such a popular culture and with more and more indie devs coming day by day, people have a lot more options, but they don't have infinite money.

On the matter of art and my own lack of fundings, if I had an infinite amount of money to give a game a chance, even if I don't like the art, I would buy it in a heartbeat. But I don't. Art is pretty important to me in a VN since a good focus on a VN is the visuals. Story is very important to me, I can't stand bad writing, but despite it's importance it's still secondary to art for me. So when I buy a game I buy something I'm confident in, not something I have to give a chance. I have yet to be led astray and my wallet thanks me.

I've played my fair share of free VN's drawn by artists who are... bad. And I loved them. So art isn't everything as long as I like the story, but in the case of payed games, if I have to choose between paying for something with good writing and good art vs something that has art I don't like but good writing, I'm going to pick the one that pleases both sides of my tastes.

But like I said, I'm not in a great financial situation so I buy what I'm confident in, not something that I have to give a chance.

Franka Mar 13, 2016

Curse of the Azure Bonds was my favorite....Alias of Westgate, god I had such a nerd crush on her lol. I wonder if TV Tropes got that trope directly from this source about her chain-mail?

"It's enchanted."

"Obviously..."

https://www.gog.com/game/forgotten_realms_the_archives_collection_two

Merry Christmas, they live on AND work on today's machines!

I own them already. DOSBox is being annoying, which was the source of my frustration. I'll work it out, but ran a bit short of patience.

rooke30 Mar 13, 2016

I really don't get people's attachment to manga style art. Modern manga art especially, considering it's worse than manga art from the 80s and early 90s. Lack of detail and no sense of proportions are its main characteristics, and they're not 'positive' characteristics, either.

Reath_ Mar 13, 2016

I haven't bought it since I'd never even heard of it until now. The only reason I found it was because I randomly checked Winter Wolves on the Steam store.

The screenshots don't leave a good first impression, since the character art looks kinda creepy. I think it's because they look almost realistic but slightly off, which causes the uncanny valley effect. The artist seems skilled enough since the clothes are well drawn, but the faces are really off putting. The aliens look much better and the background art is decent.

Another thing that bugged me is that the dialogue box is way too wide. Your eyes have to move a long distance to read the text, since it covers almost the entire width of a widescreen monitor. It would be easier to read if it was narrower, but taller. The text boxes in typical 4:3 visual novels are much easier to read, especially on a large monitor.

Instead of a visual novel only mode, wouldn't it have made more sense to make a card game only mode? Card games have a wider audience than visual novels do. Visual novels are already a niche genre, so people who enjoy both VNs and card games is going to be a pretty small market.

I played the demo for about an hour. It gives off a significantly better impression of the game than the store page does. It might be a good idea to put it on the Steam page too, since few people are going to visit the game's website and find it there. I enjoyed the card game portions of the demo. The card game seems well designed, although not particularly original. It reminds me of Hearthstone a lot.

The story didn't really capture my attention. There doesn't seem to be a clear hook to it. The war seems vaguely described. The dialogue claims that it's an urgent situation, but it really doesn't feel like it. All the characters are so easy going, which doesn't fit a military installation at war. The writing is more professional than a lot of other western VNs I've played, since the grammar and sentence structure are good.

The game didn't seem worth the full price for me. I might buy it on sale later, since the card game was fun. The story seems good enough that I could enjoy it too.

Pace675 Mar 13, 2016

I really don't get people's attachment to manga style art. Modern manga art especially, considering it's worse than manga art from the 80s and early 90s. Lack of detail and no sense of proportions are its main characteristics, and they're not 'positive' characteristics, either.

Opinion stated as fact does not make it so. Each person has their own likes and taste just because they do not conform to your tastes does not mean it to others who might find it quite endearing. For the most part I seem to favor Jack's tastes in artists he selects, just not in this one case. I see the talent and effort put into the work, but it is not visually pleasing to me, it is just that simple. Other painted and realistic artist have been pointed out and I love their work, just not Dennis' for this game.

Also you do have to remember here; Jack needs to make money or we do not get anymore of his awesome games, and if the majority of the people said they disliked this artwork, should Jack just ignore his customer base and keep a talented, reliable, and fast artist; but can not capture the interest of his base?

jack1974 Mar 13, 2016

Thanks for the feedback, but every new post just confirms my conclusions in this thread: http://www.winterwolves.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=3816

This kind of art MIGHT have worked (with some heavy supervision to avoid the "creepy" feeling) if was just a card game and no VN part.

In future will likely make more card games, but not mixed with visual novel/story

but if I do VN or RPG, a more manga style is a must (based on stats, not on people's opinions).

rooke30 Mar 13, 2016

should Jack just ignore his customer base and keep a talented, reliable, and fast artist; but can not capture the interest of his base?

I didn't say he should.

However, as a person who's been reading manga for over 20 years, and have followed a few series which have lasted over 20 years (like Ah My Goddess and Hajime No Ippo,) and have noticed the steady decline in art standards over that time, that so many people treat modern manga art as some kind of 'thing of beauty' baffles me. Look at a page from the first issue of AMG, and look at a page from the last issue and the lack of detail is VERY noticeable.

Or you can just have a look at this illustration from some dude on 2chan

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--SAq5XB25--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/ackroygtnnhnithjkwrq.png" style="max-width:100%">

Regarding the 'opinion stated as fact' thing, it would be awesome if your policing of this rule would encompass everybody in this thread and not just those who don't agree with you. Applying it to your own posts would be cool, also. Or you could just accept that on internet forums, fact will usually be followed with a piece of evidence, and opinion is traditionally stated freely omitting the flag 'imo' because if you were to include this for every statement of opinion, you'll be flinging it into every post multiple times. In other words, forum posts aren't peer-reviewed essays, and should be treated as statements of opinion unless stated (or can be reasonably inferred) otherwise.

Pace675 Mar 13, 2016

Regarding the 'opinion stated as fact' thing, it would be awesome if your policing of this rule would encompass everybody in this thread and not just those who don't agree with you. Applying it to your own posts would be cool, also. Or you could just accept that on internet forums, fact will usually be followed with a piece of evidence, and opinion is traditionally stated freely omitting the flag 'imo' because if you were to include this for every statement of opinion, you'll be flinging it into every post multiple times. In other words, forum posts aren't peer-reviewed essays, and should be treated as statements of opinion unless stated (or can be reasonably inferred) otherwise.

I know right? But I can only work with what is shown, correct? I really do hate making assumptions, we both know what that does? :wink:

Modern manga art especially, considering it's worse than manga art from the 80s and early 90s.

That is a definitive statement, leaves no room for debate.

I did clearly state my opinion:

Each person has their own likes and taste just because they do not conform to your tastes does not mean it to others who might find it quite endearing. For the most part I seem to favor Jack's tastes in artists he selects, just not in this one case. I see the talent and effort put into the work, but it is not visually pleasing to me, it is just that simple. Other painted and realistic artist have been pointed out and I love their work, just not Dennis' for this game.

I have to wholly disagree on that last statement, first and foremost that is a rare occurrence, for the most of my experience on forums people have a nasty tendency to present their opinion as facts, and only read what they care to see for rebuttal in lieu of what is actually written.

Ug peer-reviews really? please do not get me started on what I think about those XD.

rooke30 Mar 14, 2016

I did clearly state my opinion:

Did you do it consistently?

VNs do not HAVE to use magna style art to be successful, but the art MUST match the story you are trying to tell to be successful.

Opinion masquerading as fact, so you obviously didn't. IMO the art in Cinders didn't match the story they were trying to tell, but that's because art evokes different feelings in different people and the story evokes different feelings in different people. Cinders may be a 'darker' and 'grittier' story than Cinderella, but considering Cinderella is a happy-happy fairy tale, that isn't hard to accomplish. The story wasn't dark or gritty to me, but maybe it's because I've experienced stuff like 'Game of Thrones' which is far darker AND grittier. Very few things in life are absolutes, they're all relative (I.E they fit into a label only when comparing it to something else, and will switch labels depending on what you compare it with) so 'art matching story' tends to be a subjective thing. I found the art to evoke a creepier feeling in me than the story, for example, so there was a bit of a disconnect there. But it's still successful (I.E it made a profit ...) I found the VN enjoyable, the art good, I didn't find the art matched the story and yet I bought it and would gladly buy it again.

Magical Diary was a very ‘light’ and ‘enjoyable’ story to me, but people who’ve experienced traumatic events in the past were triggered by *person’s (I can’t remember his name ... dagnabbit) route. So for them, that route especially would have been fairly dark and emotional, and yet look at the art.

I didn't comment though because people have their own opinion on matters.

for the most of my experience on forums people have a nasty tendency to present their opinion as facts, and only read what they care to see for rebuttal in lieu of what is actually written.

Eh, then you're going to the wrong forums

jack1974 Mar 14, 2016

Haha I'm thinking to close the thread since it's getting a bit "hot" :lol:

Pace675 Mar 14, 2016

Haha I'm thinking to close the thread since it's getting a bit "hot"

But but I love a good debate!

Did you do it consistently?

Yes, and pulling one sentence out of a post which is clearly my opinion, especially with the plethora of "I" and "my" used throughout that post is bad form.

But moving one before we worry Jack any further; I wish you well and look forward to our next debate!

Katicflis Mar 14, 2016

*Puts away the popcorn*

jack1974 Mar 14, 2016

Haha I'm closing the thread though since I got the info I wanted. It was VERY helpful and I will also announce something shortly