Yeah, I was going to take Archwizard next. I got messed up because I figured I needed an earth nuke on my Druid since who would've thought it'd be a fire environment two acts in a row? Then I needed a res, and so on. Restless is tremendously helpful on the million-fights-in-a-row scenes (like saving Marrow's men, the slaves, the four families, and most of the early game), a little bit less so now but I intentionally picked skills based on what was useful at the time (this is my first play-through).
I didn't pick Kick because Althea, Shea, Jariel, or Riley can all inflict slow. Usually Krimm's wide slash does Weakened, but not as reliably on this fight.
So basically the build that worked for the rest of the game fails here. (I have a similar problem on Jul too, she just reheals too fast, but I haven't spent a lot of time on her yet.)
TroyenOct 24, 2014
Actually, have you retried with Althea? She was my quick and heavy hitter and slow debuffer; maybe you can get some staggering blows in for a fair amount. If you stagger Deceit (which I believe is doable), Vaelis/Althea/Krimm can do a combo of 300+ damage, but I don't know if that's enough. Does Cleanse always heal him back to full?
If it doesn't work and if Jack is up for it, I'd like to try an experiment with Deceit's Cleanse having 8-10 delay instead of whatever it is now. Seems like he can Cleanse and do something nasty in back-to-back moves (I think it's currently delay 1-2, but not 0 because I once managed to get a single turn in-between). It would be a nerf, but it might be small enough to still preserve most of the difficulty and make it more feasible for non-Hunter parties?
jack1974Oct 24, 2014
Cleanse has delay of 2 Yes I can copy that one and delay it (is used by other enemies too so I need to copy it before changing).
fabulaparvaOct 24, 2014
I retried with Althea and with the corrected Confusion-file Jack sent me, and no.. can't beat him with this party. I think that in addition to not having enough hitting power in the party's melee-department, his Cleanse is probably too fast (no, it's not 100% heal) for the mage party, whereas two Thieves and massive melee dmg dealers can still beat him.
Might... be possible to still beat him with this fast Cleanse if Althea's heavy hit didn't require Stagger (yes, you can stagger him with the help of a heavy bombs in addition to melee hits, but it still isn't quite often enough).. though I think that Vaelis would still need those boosting-skills I mentioned earlier and Shea/Riley a bit more power behind their nukes.
Another option would be to lower the HP-limit when he starts hitting Cleanse, but when I was originally testing this guy, he generally was too lazy with his Cleanse and hard hitting Hunter and Vaelis made demon sandwiches out of him pretty quickly with almost no effort needed to get those hits in concert. (So I suggested to Jack to maybe make him to be more active with his healing... instead of waiting until he has 6 debuffs on him and still at 300 HP choosing to do a weak bite instead of Cleanse...)
jack1974Oct 24, 2014
I think the simple truth is that the hunter class is overpowered compared to the others sure takes time to build up, but then you do a lot of damage. I can try lower the cleanse to see if you can beat him though (as you can imagine I'm not doing big game changes NOW )
TroyenOct 24, 2014
Jack, can you clarify if paralyze potions are supposed to work on bosses? Right now they don't seem to, but the item description doesn't mention that.
Also, why are stances dispellable but Dirty Tricks is not? Seems it should be consistent (probably undispellable stances).
jack1974Oct 25, 2014
Yes paralyze in general won't work on bosses because otherwise are too powerful (will update the paralysis description now).
And yes probably all stances should be consistent, will look into that
jack1974Oct 25, 2014
OK I've played a bit with Troyen's save too. I think the problem is not much by the Druid class, that does its job (heal, purify, etc). The nukes don't do much damage but because for this specific fight, you fight against a high-magic boss. I've buffed up a bit the Ranger Cripple, since it was almost useless by now (3 slow is not a big deal, and "critically hits" wasn't doing much damage). So now does 150% base damage and costs 15 SP / 8 delay.
I am looking at two skills that I believe nobody uses: Ranger's Hawk Eye, and Druid's Nature's touch. Correct?
I don't want to make two "super skills" since obviously it could unbalance the whole game now. But maybe I was thinking:
- Hawk Eye = buffs up attack too, so ranger could possibly do more damage like the other tanks (increasing critical has not much overall impact)
- Nature's Touch = make it a magic buff for self only (so only the Druid). this way for him could be possible to hit for more damage? I think it shouldn't unbalance the game too much, since in early stages nukes are powerful anyway, is only in act3/4 when enemies starts to have high magic resistance that things gets problematic.
What do you think? Maybe the druid's one is more risky (for game balancing I mean), but the Ranger's one I think should be fair so it has more attack power?
jack1974Oct 25, 2014
I've made some tests, I think I'm going to keep both changes. I still wasn't able to beat Deceit despite using a cheat to raise Shea/Althea level to 21 to get those two new skills
Though to be honest I wasn't able to win with a Hunter either anyway even if this battle is optional, it should still be possible to win with Druid/Ranger, so if it's too hard I'm going to make it easier. I can't make an optional battle that can be won only with a specific class (Hunter) and with a specific skillset (Hide in Shadows+Critical Hit)
TroyenOct 25, 2014
I'm all for the Hawk Eye change; that skill seemed way underpowered before.
I probably would've taken the old Nature's Touch, it's just been a lower priority - I think I was scheduled to grab it around level 24. Purify heals everyone, but Nature's Touch only healed a row - so it was okay when just the front row was taking damage, but they both cost 30 SP and have similar delays. I'll have to try the new one, but I dunno if it'll help on this fight given that Deceit likes to mass dispel everything (and that neutralizes 9 turns of one of Jariel's songs, so it's a really powerful mass dispel) and most self-buffs are dispellable.
I do think the Ranger is the weak link. The best stuff all requires stagger and there's not much synergy amongst her skills. It's too late to change now, but it was probably a mistake to have separate skills for two-weapons and two-handed weapons and one-hand + shield all in the same tree.
If you upload a build with the Deceit Cleanse delay and the new skills I can give it some more tries, though obviously I won't be able to use the new Druid skills.
jack1974Oct 25, 2014
Yes, I think too the Ranger is the main issue. As for the Druid new skill, I can change it back to the old one in an instant, so is not a problem to restore the old one. I was able to get 100dmg on Deceit with your save (I raised magic increase by 100%) but as you say is hard because he likes to mass-dispel
I'll upload a new build with the new changes in a few hours when I also will get new icons.
I am also thinking if more than trying to power up the Ranger, the right move would be to nerf the Hunter a bit (and of course tweak the boss fight if needed), like I said before so that Critical Hit requires staggered target. I think will probably do that, since right now is obviously overpowered and so doesn't make much sense to compare that with a ranger for damage!
jack1974Oct 25, 2014
OK I think I found a good way: the Hawk Eye can't be dispelled, this way is true that takes time to build up (5 turns to reach full power) but at least enemies like Deceit can't dispel it, while Hunter's buff can. I am trying to balance a bit everything, even if I still can't win against Deceit (but I NEVER won in Nightmare against him!).
If you manage to win just with the Cleanse new delay, without the new skill, then it's sure that will be enough I'm going to upload the new version in a hour, since I don't want to wait just for a few icons.
fabulaparvaOct 25, 2014
K, beat him with Troyen's party in v0.9.7.
He finally slowed down enough for me to get some heavy blows in concert, but he basically helped with that by wasting his time on flinging Slumber on Shea. That *really* slowed him down.
Cool, so if you managed to win without the new Ranger skill, should be possible to win "in general" for most players (still hard though of course).
fabulaparvaOct 25, 2014
I've fought against him so many times at this point that I'm getting afraid of commenting... Yeah, no new Ranger Skill, just the added delay to Cleanse and more power for Cripple. No special new scrolls in the shops either, because they didn't reload at that point, I guess. Here, I can show you how STUPID a mistake he made by throwing in that Slumber...the delay screwed him big time..look at the turn roster
EDIT: I think I have to type this... I believe I would've won without "his gracious help," too. ... Just made me think if he should even have that skill? Now that his Cleanse is delayed, him hitting slumber on a single mage when he has powerful multiattacks feels utterly silly, since the Slumber's high-delay will just eff him up.
jack1974Oct 25, 2014
Well will wait until Troyen says he won too since not everyone replayed the game so many times and is so expert like you
TroyenOct 25, 2014
Got him to 200 health before he healed up and I ran out of SP, but that was without using potions (Druid in front row to stack 44 damage dots and apply Frozen/Shattered). The Cleanse delay is really nice, giving me a chance to react before he follows up with a dispel/paralyze. Except now he seems to cast Mass Paralyze and then Cleanse and I can't do much in-between.
I notice Deceit's health can vary a bit. Sometimes his max is 1181, sometimes its 1250, sometimes a number in between. I wonder if on the really difficult bosses you want to tighten the possible stat ranges or use a fixed set of stats? 70 damage is like 2-3 hits and can make the difference in a close fight. Right now it encourages reloading until you get a "weaker" Deceit.
I don't really notice the extra damage on Cripple much. It's maybe 10-12 more than it was before, which makes it slightly more damaging than a long attack, but has an extra two delay. It might work out in the long run. Certainly an improvement over the old version, but dunno if more should be done yet to the Ranger.
I'm stocking up on potions/scrolls now and will give it another go. I just need the right set of debuffs/buffs to line up and then I can pour on the damage a bit. I even got to use Vaelis' Final Blow once, but he didn't get another shot in before Deceit healed. Guess that's what you get when you pin all your hopes on an old man.
I didn't even know he could cast Slumber. He's never used it against me. Sometimes I'll get lucky and he'll Death Blow Krimm in the back row, which I'm fine with since she spends most of the fight paralyzed.
TroyenOct 25, 2014
All right, I need to take a break. Been trying this for two hours today.
I bought 4000 gold worth of consumables just for this fight:
I'd have more but the shops don't have anything else. I've even bought some shoulderpads for Jariel with 55 Paralyze resist (the only Paralyze gear in all the shops) so that he gets Paralyzed for 2 turns instead of 6 - at a significant Threshold/Attack/Defense/Speed/Magic penalty.
It feels like I get close sometimes, but then I get an unlucky string of misses and he heals up. Fifteen minutes later it becomes clear I've lost because I run out of consumables and SP and start having to spend turns on healing spells instead of offense.
I've tried two strategies:
Vaelis, Althea, Jariel in the front row. Shea, Riley, Krimm in the back row. Krimm seems to break free earlier and can toss in some damage, but she's pretty weak in the back - contributing a paltry 15 (or 18 if Deceit is debuffed).
I had more luck with Vaelis, Althea, Shea in the front row. Rowinda, Jariel, Riley in the back. Rowinda is virtually useless offensively and spends the whole fight tossing around potions with the occasional hail-mary Lava Storm to try and inflict Burning (because it is 1-2 ticks of 44-49 damage! Way more than her spell damage of 21). Riley helps toss scrolls and weak potions/stamina pots to keep the front line going while he's paralyzed. Occasionally he can get in a Magic Chains for 7 turns of slow, which lets Althea take lower-delay Normal attacks. I use the 40% haste on Shea, Scroll of Haste on Vaelis and 20/40% on Althea.
Jariel prioritizes Potion of Fear (Scared), either Confusion/Weakness, and then Heavy Bombs. Potions of Slow if nobody else can get one in and the boss doesn't have it on him.
Shea prioritizes Barbed Spike (Shattered), Ice Spike (Frozen), Inferno (Burning), though I rarely get two up at once before Deceit cleanses.
Vaelis keeps rally up, Twin Axes if bleed is low or if he's hasted and I have a timespan where I can get in multiple hits, and Normal attacks otherwise. (I don't use my recovery stance, I have the mages use their stamina potions).
Althea does Cripple if Riley didn't get his slow off, and Normal otherwise. Sometimes if the turn order prediction says I can get two moves in, I might Cripple and then Normal. When Deceit gets around 60% health, I start using Staggering Blow if I get two moves before Deceit and he's staggered and debuffed for the extra 40-50 damage it gives me, but a lot of times I hold off because of the delay.
I can generally get Deceit to 400-500 but then he'll either dispel me (meaning I lose all those haste buffs) or Paralyze the back row. Or somebody will have a crucial high-damage attack and Vaelis is unable to use Finishing Blow to drop him within kill range. Or all my big hitters are on the last few turns of Insanity and hit like wet noodles.
I may try again with Vaelis/Krimm/Shea in the front and Althea/Jariel/Riley in the back and see how that goes, giving Althea the paralyze shoulders. I may also revert to a save about 30 mins earlier to try some of the new mage scrolls, though aside from the beginning of the fight, my mages are already kept busy during paralysis just keeping haste and SP up, so I don't know how much they'll help.
If you had to make another change to the boss, I would up the delay on Mass Paralyze. Delay 2 boss skills that completely alter the battlefield are pretty frustrating, especially when my mass-effect skills all have delays of 12-20. I'm not quite clear if this would help enough or not.
(Also, he cast 0 Slumbers on me. Guess I was unlucky.)
jack1974Oct 26, 2014
If you had to make another change to the boss, I would up the delay on Mass Paralyze. Delay 2 boss skills that completely alter the battlefield are pretty frustrating, especially when my mass-effect skills all have delays of 12-20. I'm not quite clear if this would help enough or not.
Yes but he is alone You have 6 party members, that's why I put such low delay. Doing really hard boss battles without using this "cheat" is not possible. If I put the same delay on his mass paralyze (12-20) I think the battle would instantly become very easy. Not saying I can't change it of course, I'm explaining why I did that
So far we have 2 people that made it, I tried several times myself and never won but that's normal (I never won other battles in NM either). I guess maybe I could put 4 delay on mass paralysis but I don't think more than that... ?
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