Winter Wolves - Golden Lion Pub - different body sizes (was Loren 2 colored camp thread)

P_Tigras Oct 10, 2015

Those images were done a lot of time ago (2 years ago I think!). In recent times I added more variety, like Krimm in SOTW, and I have also commissioned some more amazons with different body builds:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMMAb2nWgAEfTxf.jpg" style="max-width:100%">

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMMAb74WgAAHeUU.jpg" style="max-width:100%">

I'm going to chime in late here on this one. The second image certainly fits in well with what one would expect for a society of warrior women. The first image on the other hand will likely raise some eyebrows.

Anima_ Oct 10, 2015

It will certainly raise some eyebrows, but chubby or even fat male warriors aren't exactly unheard of in various media. At the moment only an example from a modern show comes to mind: Flashpoints sergeants Parker, who leads a SWAT team.

Not every soldier will look like they jumped out of an recruitment poster.

kadakithis Oct 10, 2015

No kidding, more chiseled pecs are also more of a modern thing as much. It was very common now and then to have chubby/strong characters. A layer of fat over muscles is actually really normal. Some of the strongest people I have ever seen looked fat, but you realized they had just as much muscle but fat over it and they lifted a lot of weights.

A lot of old action books, the fat character was always the strongest, and I think this has something to do with it.

jack1974 Oct 10, 2015

The character is fat, but not excessively. Her weapon is a polearm, which can keep opponent at distance, and you only need to be quick with your arms (think Friar Tuck from Robin Hood !). I think the various media brainwashed people thinking that ALL fighters must be body-building types, when in reality it's definitely not necessary.

She would lose in a fight against Loren? of course, as Amukiki or anyone else would :mrgreen:

but could beat easily some thinner but weaker or less experienced humans, orcs, goblins, whatever.

Anima_ Oct 10, 2015

Ah books was the memory jagging keyword. Of course how could I possible forget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obelix

Franka Oct 12, 2015

Obelix gets a free pass - he fell into the magic cauldron.

P_Tigras Oct 12, 2015

First let me say that I don't have an issue with the inclusion of a "fat" warrior woman into the game. I was simply noting that not everyone will react to it positively. From a marketing perspective it's certainly a brave thing for winterwolves to do. That said, I do enjoy a good discussion, and I'm going to respond to some of the comments made.

No kidding, more chiseled pecs are also more of a modern thing as much.

Agreed.

It was very common now and then to have chubby/strong characters. A layer of fat over muscles is actually really normal. Some of the strongest people I have ever seen looked fat, but you realized they had just as much muscle but fat over it and they lifted a lot of weights. A lot of old action books, the fat character was always the strongest, and I think this has something to do with it.

Common is a relative term. Those builds certainly existed, but they were nowhere near as prevalent in medieval or pre-medieval times as they are today. In fact that sort of weight was considered a sign of affluence because regular folk couldn't afford the amount of calorie-rich foods required to put on that sort of weight. Meat was expensive, and the heavily processed oils and sugary syrups used in nearly everything today did not yet exist. Nor did they have cars to drive everywhere. The affluent may have rode horses, but horses were incredibly expensive, and common folk as well as the vast majority of soldiers and guards did lots and lots of walking.

The added mass that comes from fat can add momentum and force to a punch, a kick, or a tackle, but it also reduces acceleration/speed (thus taking away some of that added momentum and force), reduces endurance, and significantly increases the risk of injury. It also isn't as useful with melee weapons as it is in unarmed combat, as it doesn't make the effective mass of most weapons any greater, nor does it make the holes they poke any larger. It is true however that the human body tends to develop as much muscle as it needs, and heavier folk need more muscle mass to move that weight around. So a 240lb man with a 30lb beer belly is very likely stronger than a 150lb man in great physical shape, even while he's slower, tires out faster, and places more stress on his joints, most especially his knees. On the other hand another 240lb man who isn't overweight would have a significant advantage over both men.

yayswords Oct 12, 2015

Can't fat be considered a last line of defense too? I mean if you're ripped, even getting hit by the clumsiest slash of a blade will damage your muscles.

kadakithis Oct 12, 2015

First let me say that I don't have an issue with the inclusion of a "fat" warrior woman into the game. I was simply noting that not everyone will react to it positively. From a marketing perspective it's certainly a brave thing for winterwolves to do. That said, I do enjoy a good discussion, and I'm going to respond to some of the comments made.

The added mass that comes from fat can add momentum and force to a punch, a kick, or a tackle, but it also reduces acceleration/speed (thus taking away some of that added momentum and force), reduces endurance, and significantly increases the risk of injury. It also isn't as useful with melee weapons as it is in unarmed combat, as it doesn't make the effective mass of most weapons any greater, nor does it make the holes they poke any larger. It is true however that the human body tends to develop as much muscle as it needs, and heavier folk need more muscle mass to move that weight around. So a 240lb man with a 30lb beer belly is very likely stronger than a 150lb man in great physical shape, even while he's slower, tires out faster, and places more stress on his joints, most especially his knees. On the other hand another 240lb man who isn't overweight would have a significant advantage over both men.

Didn't mean to shorten your comment but I can never keep up with Quotes line by line XD

Actually, the chiseled look is one where normal fat everyone has is Also worked off, sometimes well and sometimes very poorly. The skin is suctioned to the muscles which has a more defined look but much more common today where you have to try to look like that. Most of the time a normal layer of fat even a very fit person has develops around the muscle making someone look fat when in fact they have a normal amount surrounding their muscle. This is actually way healthier than say bodybuilding, which is known to have high health risks.

In a non fantasy setting, I would say the larger amazon is in better shape, since the body builder type looks strong but it makes you very weak, endurance wise, the eating and actions needed to keep it up. I work out quite a bit. I love bulking up, but I know my fat friend can out run any of my bodybuilding friends, and way healthier. Weirdly enough, a fat person who excersizes often (as an amazon would) doesn't always lose weight but they counter most if not all the health problems of being overweight.

Live fast, die young and leave a good looking corpse is a motto in bodybuilding and used more than you may think. Almost any health problem associated with being fat I can guarantee is rampant in bodybuilding community, even those who dont take steroids. I still remember when we all took physicals and my friend was shown on multiple tests to be healthier than all of us. It was a wake up call.

So when I see characters like Rei, I notice he was fit in the first game, but I want to stage an intervention in Loren 2, but I realize that is due to my experience and get that fantasy/sci fi muscles work way different in real life, more is always better and comes without extra side effects which is awesome!

P_Tigras Oct 13, 2015

1) Many bodybuilders live an unhealthy lifestyle that prioritizes appearance over health. In addition, a cut/ripped body in and of itself can be bad for a woman's health as womens' bodies are designed to operate with a higher percentage of body fat than mens'.

2) Nevertheless elite level athletes in many competitive sports drop their body fat percentage down to maximize performance. Top runners for example tend to be very lean and chiseled. When was the last time you saw an overweight person win an Olympic running event? I can't recall ever seeing it.

3) There is no law or rule that prevents very strong people from also being overweight, including lots of off-season bodybuilders. Just because they're physically strong doesn't mean they're necessarily physically fit. As BMI increases so too does the risk of heart disease, stroke, diabetes, cancer, arthritis, gall stones, etc...

4) The "normal" layer of fat carried by most fit persons will prevent them from looking cut/ripped, and gives women their curves, but it doesn't necessarily make a person look fat, although there are a number of factors (age, weight distribution, poor abdominal strength, excess skin, a recent large meal, water retension, etc...) that can effect this. Of course I suspect that kadakithis and I may have different definitions of "physically fit" and "normal layer of fat on a fit person".

5) IMHO Rei is fine in Loren 2. There are men who naturally look like that and live long and healthy lives. Given his build, Rei strikes me as one of those. There are also those who work hard to reduce their body fat to gain a performance advantage that gain that look as a side-effect. As long as someone isn't engaging in an unhealthy lifestyle to attain that look I don't have an issue with it.

P_Tigras Oct 13, 2015

Can't fat be considered a last line of defense too? I mean if you're ripped, even getting hit by the clumsiest slash of a blade will damage your muscles.

Bleeding kills, regardless of whether it was fat that was slashed or muscle that was slashed. So I don't believe the risk of death is much different. On the other hand cut muscles, or even worse, cut tendons and ligaments, can cripple a person, while cut fat will not.

yayswords Oct 13, 2015

On the other hand cut muscles, or even worse, cut tendons and ligaments, can cripple a person, while cut fat will not.

That's what I was asking, yeah. Then on the other hand, doesn't the fat protect your blood vessels too?

kadakithis Oct 13, 2015

1) Many bodybuilders live an unhealthy lifestyle that prioritizes appearance over health. In addition, a cut/ripped body in and of itself can be bad for a woman's health as womens' bodies are designed to operate with a higher percentage of body fat than mens'.

2) Nevertheless elite level athletes in many competitive sports drop their body fat percentage down to maximize performance. Top runners for example tend to be very lean and chiseled. When was the last time you saw an overweight person win an Olympic running event? I can't recall ever seeing it.

3) There is no law or rule that prevents very strong people from also being overweight, including lots of off-season bodybuilders. Just because they're physically strong doesn't mean they're necessarily physically fit. As BMI increases so too does the risk of heart disease, stroke, diabetes, cancer, arthritis, gall stones, etc...

4) The "normal" layer of fat carried by most fit persons will prevent them from looking cut/ripped, and gives women their curves, but it doesn't necessarily make a person look fat, although there are a number of factors (age, weight distribution, poor abdominal strength, excess skin, a recent large meal, water retension, etc...) that can effect this. Of course I suspect that kadakithis and I may have different definitions of "physically fit" and "normal layer of fat on a fit person".

5) IMHO Rei is fine in Loren 2. There are men who naturally look like that and live long and healthy lives. Given his build, Rei strikes me as one of those. There are also those who work hard to reduce their body fat to gain a performance advantage that gain that look as a side-effect. As long as someone isn't engaging in an unhealthy lifestyle to attain that look I don't have an issue with it.

Woah this seems more of an ongoing argument and I usually avoid those, and feel the disscussion is clogging up the actual thread, but you can PM me. I just meant from my experience the public often misunderstands BMI and its effect on health and that lean and muscular is very different from heavily chiseled.

jack1974 Oct 14, 2015

Haha yes, I think will split this thread into another one in the "Golden Lion Pub" since it derailed a bit the official thread

P_Tigras Oct 14, 2015

I usually quote, but it seemed quicker and easier to go point by point in my last reply. It's also a subject to which I've given a great deal of thought over the years, and I was clearly transitioning into debate mode. :lol:

P_Tigras Oct 14, 2015

BTW, I also agree that BMI is often misunderstood. Not every man with a BMI in the high 20's is overweight, and likewise, not every woman with a BMI in the 17's or low 18's is necessarily underweight. It's useful for statistical purposes when tracking large groups, but not necessarily accurate when applied to individuals unless the numbers get very high or very low. It doesn't differentiate between sexes, nor by age, and neither does it differentiate between muscle & bone mass on the one hand and fat mass on the other. It's all the same to the formula.

I can say that as BMI goes up, particularly once we get into the 30's and higher, that health risks increase, but I wouldn't say that someone is necessarily overweight just because their BMI is over 25.

kadakithis Oct 28, 2015

Agreed. Sorry I was go e for so long.

Yes, but the issue is also heavily muscled like body builders is really unhealthy. Look up Gold medalists for gymnastics, or Micheal Phelps Who is definitely well built but not abs upon abs built. Look at Famous soccer stars who won world championships. They are usually built, but rarely if ever on the equivelent of body builders. Heck even olympic grade hammer throwers would be considered obese by outside lookers.

I don't mean that people overweight can go toe to toe with olympic medalists, but body builders aren't the healthiest lot. Honestly, truly, body building is just not good for the body, and someone who gets up and moves and excersizes regularly but is overweight is probably going to be better off than people who body build. It is killer on the body with the routines.

Often if someone is muscular and thin it = healthy in general conciousness, while even if someone excersizes regularly and is fairly fit overweight = unhealthy no matter how many tests say otherwise.

And that is a really deadly mindset. It kills bodybuilders who view being overweight as the worst thing imaginable, while also makes most people unable to see a friend or family member is killing themselves, and shames healthy people with great habits who may not look like poster perfect health.

So instead of telling the overweight person they are healthy (which they are on all counts except BMI) and the Body Builder that they are unhealthy (which they often are by all counts except BMI) we say the opposite and lead to a bad condition in both. Often the talk over health and fatness has relatively little to do with health at all and is mostly vanity.

jack1974 Nov 01, 2015

I just saw this and thought is relevant :lol:

[youtubewd]T0Orqpdwytc[/youtubewd]

last fight is super impressive, a huge muscular black man, KOed by the fat man!

kadakithis Nov 02, 2015

Definitely! You can see the muscle under there sometimes when he moves, but really our whole view of fat and healthy are weirdly mixed.

These ladies even look like the picture we originally talked about and they won medals.

http://www.spox.com/de/sport/mehrsport/leichtathletik/1409/Bilder/zhou-lulu-600.jpg" style="max-width:100%">

http://www.dispatch.com/content/graphics/2012/07/14/arace-mangold-art-gqoi6npd-1olympictrials-kr-05-jpg.jpg" style="max-width:100%">

Jaeger Nov 02, 2015

High level sports is more about performance than long-term health. Although fat will be gained through bulking up, a bad diet will accelerate the fat growth. It's muscles that help with the lifting, not the fat. Super heavy weightlifters don't have a limit in body weight, so they can get away with excess fat as long as they continue to lift heavier and their mobility isn't compromised. Weightlifters of lighter divisions need to stay within their weight range, and they are usually not that fat.